How do you define who you are? Have you ever felt like you’ve lost yourself? In this episode, we are joined by yet another amazing staff member, Madeline Frey, MS, LPCC, to dive into how we help our clients rediscover who they are and what steps to take.
Talking Points Starting with an example of ways exercise helps with the self-rediscovery process Going over favorite parts of Identity and Purpose Week in the Peak Recovery Curriculum How to get out of the quicksand-nature of shame How to forgive your past self Quotes “He was so genuine and so relieved, and had such a clear picture of who he was. You can’t help but be inspired by that. It is such a cool thing to be a part of.” -Madeline Frey, MS, LPCC, Primary Therapist Episode Transcripts Episode 53 Transcriptsempathy is knowing your own darkness
without that connection you don’t have
anything what’s the opposite of
addiction just freedom
hey everybody and welcome to another
amazing episode of finding peaks you
have yours truly chris burns grateful
recovering president and founder
we have our chief clinical officer um my
right-hand man jason friesman licensed
professional counselor and we have
madeline frye
no license prevail licensed professional
counselor as well that is the first time
i actually got her last name right um
she corrected me today so now i’m how
were you saying it fray frame yeah yeah
it looks like free kind of reads that
way yeah
yeah it does
but we are so excited to bring to you um
another topic within our curriculum
we’re going to be talking about identity
and purpose but i wanted to jump into
something i think really meaningful
before we get into that and
i had both of these individuals
in my gym this morning in the pain cave
we were talking a little bit about
before the show kind of getting a sweat
in before breakfast and more
specifically doing that in the midst of
connection and kind of what that does
for our mental health what it does for
our clarity and what i was talking to
the guys about this morning in circle
was like i need to foster that greatness
so that i can share it with you all i
can’t get to work and expect myself to
to get to a place where i can extend
these emotional opportunities or extend
these connective opportunities if i
don’t take great care of myself and i
kind of like in those morning routines
to kind of put that that uh oxygen mask
on first before we go and do it for the
people that we love and cherish within
the program and so i just wanted to chat
with you a little bit about your routine
in the morning and how it allows you and
enables you to show up as
a good professional but an even better
human
yeah yeah
um yeah i think for me in particular um
i
have my own journey that i’ve walked
with anxiety and it it’s been really
important for me to to realize and to
hone in that one of the things that
helps me the most is physical activity
and and that can have a lot of different
forms i
have kind of narrowed it down to really
liking um like weightlifting and cardio
stuff like crossfit specifically and and
i just found that if i if i do that i
feel more in tune with my body
i feel more in tune with my routine
it it helps me just feel like i’m on the
right path for the day
it’s also really important for me to
know how i’m doing so if i’m exhausted
or if i have a late night if i have a
lot going on it’s important for me to
have flexibility in that that i know
it’s okay if i sleep in i know that it’s
fine if it’s not perfectly in the
routine and just having like that
flexibility and grace that i can offer
myself but um it’s just it’s a great
thing for me to be able to incorporate
and i found that it does help a lot as
far as just mental health and well-being
goes yeah that’s huge you actually bring
up a really interesting point you like
get to
you get to know yourself that day and
that workout and where you’re at yeah
because the workout will be really
honest with you especially if you’re
being dishonest with yourself
and i love that getting under a bar but
i’ll be like wow i don’t
have what i had yesterday and i can be a
little bit more mindful and maybe enact
some self-compassion and i don’t have to
be shot out of a cannon
because that tends to be
counterproductive that’s really cool
i’ve actually never heard it explained
that way
i want to ask you guys so you guys work
out with our clients
uh often in crossfit gym and all that
how yeah how do you see that helping the
people at peaks
oh man i can think of a specific story
where there’s a
girl that had been
just walking through a variety of
substance use issues she had a variety
of mental health concerns and she was so
ready to commit and just wanted to be
well and so she showed up with this
attitude of i’m just going to try
whatever is put in front of me and she
walked into the crossfit gym for the
first time and i think her eyes were as
big as dinner plates and she was like
this place looks terrifying
and she was like maddie please don’t
make me do this and i was like we’re
just gonna do it together right we’re
just gonna take it one step at a time
and she walked out and she was like
that was weird and really hard but i did
it and and then i realized that just
because it looks scary doesn’t mean i
can’t do it and then she ended up
talking about ways that she could
incorporate similar types of activities
after she discharged
and she’s still doing really well and so
it’s just it’s really cool to see people
using it as a platform to challenge
themselves in a way that they haven’t
before um and that’s really fun to kind
of just be a part of and kind of get to
say like we’ll do it together that’s
exceptional i actually think i know who
you’re talking about yeah it’s really
really cool and to watch those lights
turn off and watch them integrate it
into their community i guess the best
story i can come up with is we had a
male client who showed up to us in a
walker
um and he came in in a walker and he
couldn’t walk and he’s dragging his
right foot and he’s got a tremendous
alcohol detox to walk through and i
remember i sat with him at crossfit and
we just sat over in the corner of the
bench he couldn’t even he couldn’t even
sit up he had to sit against the wall
and i said man we’re gonna get over
there he’s like i’ll never make it over
there and i said absolutely we will but
we’re going to work on these arms and we
did some curls and we just talked and we
just shared space together we watched
them work out he got a good arm pump in
was nothing crazy and then after a few
weeks of meeting me in there on a
thursday i come in on a thursday i’m
like
yo where’s uh so-and-so and they’re like
and i look over and he’s on a rower
and he goes we got some things to talk
about chris and i’m like oh my gosh man
i went home i told my wife there’s this
guy he’s overcoming adversity and then i
get to go see him up in denver and he’s
integrating that stuff he’s out hiking
he’s going to phoenix multi-sport he’s
connected with this physical side of
which before he came to peaks and most
certainly in his initial stages and
peaks he thought was never
possible
and so i love how that physical activity
wherever it’s at whoever it’s with it
tends to turn on
this side of my brain that says i can
and turn off the side that i can’t but
even more specifically
i find it creates a lot of vulnerability
and when we are able to get in that
vulnerable space i think we can connect
with whole hearts and really enact
tremendous change
even even when we were working out with
jason the other day he got done doing a
squat or maybe it was a shoulder press
or something and he came out of it he
said whoa
i don’t know what came up there i’m just
getting a little emotional i said give
me a hug dude let’s go
happens once a week
and i just love that and for the viewers
i think it’s important especially if
you’re sitting back watching me i’m not
going to do crossfit with maddie and
chris that’s crazy yeah it’s not we meet
everybody where they’re at sometimes we
walk together sometimes we sit together
at times we cry together and oh yeah we
do this physical thing called crossfit
occasionally as well but it’s
the opportunity to engage in that is so
much bigger than anything physical
and that’s what i love about it and i
think it mirrors this
um
a beautiful path that i see so many
people have to go on just as far as
recovery is in general by asking
yourself what have i been doing up until
this point that i’m willing to change
and it’s
it’s such a big ask and it’s so
uncomfortable
but i think one of the beautiful things
that i’ve seen happen over and over and
over again as people get to the point
where they’re like
let’s just try it let’s just see what
happens and then when they do it it just
creates this sense of self-efficacy
where it’s like i can i can try
something and i can accomplish something
and just because it’s hard doesn’t mean
i can’t um that’s that’s what courage is
right like feeling afraid and doing it
anyway
um and there’s a guy in particular he um
came in and was just really unfamiliar
with all of this stuff and had some
extra weight on him and he he was
willing and he showed up and he just did
these things all over um i mean
repeatedly throughout the program and
not only did he lose a lot of weight but
what he was saying was
now whenever i feel something whenever i
have an emotion or i’m experiencing
anxiety
my body tells me and because i’m using
it
now i know how to respond to it or at
least i have the opportunity to create
space for myself to take care of myself
and that’s really really cool you know
we’ll we’ll do some mindfulness stuff
for some
breathing activities where you know
we’ll like put our hand on a stomach and
a hand on her heart and and feel what it
feels like to breathe and just see the
anxiety
dispel from someone or
they start feeling more grounded after
that and it’s just a really cool process
that we see that when someone is willing
to engage and try something new and they
start using their body their body
actually gives them information
and and they can use that as an
emotional regulation and grounding skill
um that doesn’t it’s not just when
they’re working out it also goes into
like the rest of their day as well and
that comes up in session that comes up
in conversations it’s um i don’t know
it’s a beautiful thing and it’s fun to
be a part of yeah yeah that’s really
cool too and in an effort too in that
direction is like then you once you
identify and
come to grips or become relational with
your body then it’s something you can be
safe inside as well
which is really really cool to watch
that grow
so thank you for that
so the topic today is actually identity
and purpose and i think it’s a great
dovetail off of this crossfit as well
because
often times i’m in there when i’m
cheerleading everybody and check it out
if you come to peaks you’ve never had a
cheerleader like me
but never
unless you went to a m they got really
good male cheerleaders
they’re pretty strong
yeah but
i go in there and i say and i’m
screaming at the top of my lungs i said
i know it doesn’t say on our website but
you’re going to come here and be a
better athlete too
we didn’t read it
i watched my language
we didn’t read it in the small print but
you’re going to be a better athlete and
i look at some of these especially
mature adults who come in and don’t
think they would ever be in a ladder
drill and then they come through and
just watching them light up when i say
that because what i see behind their
eyes is a sense of purpose a sense of
belonging a sense of feeling a part of
which has been a big part of my identity
and recovery is feeling a part of this
group
and being a person in long-term recovery
from a mental health disorder which i
used to use substances to cope so i want
to
throw it over to you we’re actually in
the midst of identity and purpose and
discussing a lot of this but
maddie if you would what are some of
your
favorite components in that week and
what does it look like yeah um so i’ve
been working with the women specifically
this week on identity and purpose and
the curriculum as we’ve built it has a
variety of tools and theories that we
kind of weave in
just to help people gain insight into
some of the things that make them who
they are and i think one of the things
that um
we see consistently is that when
someone’s in the midst of their
addiction or when someone’s in the midst
of
working through mental health concerns
they start to believe that that’s the
the substance of their identity right
that that is the thing that makes up who
they are and and they and they lose
sight of that they um
it it just becomes something that
they’re not super clear on anymore and
so um so for example you know we worked
through um this thing called enneagram
this week and it’s just a thing that
helps people understand more of their
personality based on basic fears and
basic desires and so we engaged with
that
and then incorporated
what’s called eric erickson’s theory of
psychosocial development which looks at
stages of life and certain virtues that
are developed
as someone goes through like conflicts
so say the conflict is between
intimacy or isolation in your early
adulthood
people resolve that conflict by engaging
in meaningful relationships
and then they consider what happens if
you know you go through a variety of
unsuccessful relationships or feel
discouraged
and we also talk about something called
maslow’s hierarchy of needs
and basically what all this is doing is
putting things together that help people
realize that
there are contributing factors to um
what they’re dealing with it’s not who
they are
these are the things that have come up
or what they’ve been through or
developmental ruptures that have
happened
it’s not it’s not who they are as a
person and so we we inject some
compassion and some grace for ourselves
into how we think about who we are um
that helps um negate that shame a little
bit um and then we start talking about
well if you’re not that then who are you
and that’s when we start talking about
values and we start talking about
purpose and we start talking about
envisioning a better world for
themselves and where they get to be
really specific about some of the things
that they want to see if they are able
to lean into their values and if they
are able to have greater self-compassion
and less shame
so that’s kind of what we’ve been
working on so far this week nice i love
that to to come in and out and really
create that iden i was just in group
this morning with a mature adult and i
said
and i’ll ask this question often when i
first meet people i say in your best
guess
why do you abuse substances with such
intensity
and a lot of times mature adults they’ll
say i just you know i’ve just always
been a drinker i’m a drinker i’ve always
been an alcoholic i just like drinking
my parents drank i drank and i’m just a
drinker’s drinker
and i’m like gosh to your point i just
think you’re so much more than that you
are so much more than that and i get to
see these humans in front of me that
have kind of consolidated their identity
and their purpose to this tiny cup
and it’s some of the saddest stuff that
i get to see but one of the greatest
things i get to see is when they pop out
of a curriculum like identity and
purpose and they’re like
i have a real chance i’ve been able to
formulate something that can be
sustainable and really intentional and
it kind of redescribes
who i am
right it probably pulls away from that
negative self-talk as well at the same
time
well i think you know when we were
developing the curriculum um
i was i was hearkening back to uh like
clients
i used to talk in group about like hey
the the removal of the cup that you just
said of of substance use
and maybe other mental health stuff like
you remove that cup
and you’re left with this beautiful
blank canvas like you can begin to build
your life on there
and i had i would frame it in a way that
it was this exciting thing that like you
have all this opportunity
and i remember looking in groups often
and just seeing
terror and fear of like i don’t know
what’s left
uh if i if i remove these substances or
if i don’t if i’m not kind of crippled
by my depression or anxiety or whatever
i don’t
i don’t know what is there
and
you know it kind of stemmed from there
to be like you know what this isn’t just
like one group like where we have a
little chat about what to put on there
like we have to have a we have to really
do a deep dive on this to really help
people
find themselves
and to your point chris you know like um
it’s so critically important i think
to move well beyond i’m an addict or i i
am depressed i am these things what else
are you i it it’s wide and it’s vast and
um it’s nuanced and and maddie you
mentioned the word shame i think people
often get hung up on uh
get stuck in that spot of like i’m never
going to be better i’m never
going to figure all these things out and
i think you did a great job kind of
talking about
um how we kind of carefully walk people
toward finding out more about themselves
being curious about that
and it’s kind of the removal of all of
those things all of that shame and
saying over here
you know this is your personality this
is where you got a little hung up in
your past
and then this is how you can begin to
manage and walk through your fears and
how you can begin to find and identify
yourself and and be proud of who you are
and you know because when people walk in
um i i’ve told this story a few times
like they do literally feel like they’re
the worst people on the planet a lot of
people walk in the peaks feeling like
they’re the worst person on the planet
on the planet and um that’s a lot to
walk through especially as we remove the
thing driving that shame um
but also kind of creating an identity uh
what’s left and how do we begin to build
that
yeah
yeah i mean that that’s huge and we have
these interesting parallels at peaks
recovery too because you got someone
coming in in their first week and
someone leaving in their sixth and i had
that parallel this morning in group and
are in my circle and um one of the folks
that was new in recovery he couldn’t
help but define himself as that
the person that was on his way out he’s
like all i know is i can do everything
in my life except for that
you know and he’s like and i have all of
this i got relationships i have a
beautiful wife i got 10 and 11’s at
night chris i got a coffee with you next
week i just can’t wait i’m hanging with
my wife here in colorado springs and it
was just like you could see these
parallels running and i get chills
talking about it because that’s the hope
and that person was able to turn to the
person who left today i think was your
client
and go
all right man i can see the light at the
end of the tunnel this makes sense yeah
you know um but i’ve been mired in and
that took
alcoholics anonymous 1935 i mean they
were really
giving people identity it was much
different than it is now we’re trying to
grow out of that alcoholic addict
identity but it was brilliant yeah they
brought these people in you said hey
you’re not nobody you’re an alcoholic in
long-term recovery and you help people
and i can remember just what that energy
felt like to be helpful
to anyone for anything for any reason
and when you enact some identity and
give people a little bit of purpose and
allow them to and that’s what i love the
way we do it we allow them to define
that
um it can really turn those lights on
pretty clearly
um well i think
there are constraints to the alcoholics
anonymous approach because like you kind
of still have to keep the cup central
yep
and i think i think we find that it’s
helpful to acknowledge the cup and and
own that cup
but don’t own a lot of other things
beyond that cup as well not just the cup
yeah most definitely and we’re
understanding now it is all about mental
health yeah
but it was brilliant for
that time
yeah absolutely innovative for sure yeah
especially some of the concepts too that
kind of match today like they don’t call
it shame yeah right they call it self
yeah or whatever it might be you know so
yeah and it was cool um talking with him
on his way out and
and he said
it feels it feels strange and unfamiliar
but i’m proud of myself
and it was it was really cool talking to
him because you could see that he was
holding on to some emotion yeah and i
was like
can you say that again
yeah
he was like
i’m proud of myself and he’s like maddie
you’re not gonna make me cry my last day
i was like you already are yeah
damn it i love
because he was he was so genuine and so
relieved and had such a clear picture of
who he was
and you can’t help but be inspired by
that it’s just such a cool thing to be a
part of it really is
we see it a lot too with mature adults
who have had some successes you know had
a career had a college degree and then
you know find themselves coping with
substances in their late 30s or early
you see that identity just get
completely discombobulated and they just
don’t think they can get it back
specifically the client you’re speaking
about when he came in i mean it was just
hopeless
and
it’s a long fall when you built an
identity
you know some it’s easier for people
that are 17 18 19 years old they haven’t
built as much of an identity but if you
built a career in a family and all those
things are now
uh in jeopardy or you’re feeling awful
about it like that’s a that’s a big fall
it’s really tough yeah you see it
sometimes with young people as well
especially
athletes in school you know for me i
i didn’t grow up with anything other
than i’m either an addict and i do all
this horrific this bad stuff or i’m this
athlete sometimes too and that was nice
you know and that was a breath of fresh
air and um i didn’t play college sports
or even close but i remember leaving
high school and i’m like
i’m not
a basketball player anymore and don’t
play football i’m not getting paid for
this who am i and i remember turning
very intentionally and energetically and
being like you’re this bad person
you know and so i see it with young
people as well and it might be sport it
could be church it could be community
something that was here today and kind
of shifted tomorrow
i see that be pretty detrimental for
young people as well
and it’s helpful giving people two
options
of different ways to think about
themselves because i think what you’re
exactly to your point right you had
basketball player and you had
a bad person right and and because one
was gone you were able to then just
really focus on the other
and i think it’s helpful just for people
to have the book open in front of them
and say i can identify um in this realm
in this realm you know my hobbies my
interests my values my passions my
relationships and have all these
different ways to think about themselves
that gives them a deeper sense of
purpose and a deeper sense of relating
to the world in a meaningful way
what do you real quick and i know we
don’t have a lot of time left but that’s
brilliant and just brings up another how
do you get people out of that how do you
do you
i try i find myself explaining kind of
these rudiment these rooted kind of
foundational stuff within our
developmental process but how do you get
people out of their shame
with this stuff do you explain hey a lot
of this stuff is in the past or i mean
can you explain that a little bit for
the viewers
um
i
i mean obviously shame is sticky like it
is probably one of the um
feelings that just trips people up the
most and everyone feels it um it’s such
a universal feeling but it’s the thing
that leads to disconnection because
shame is the the feeling that that
leaves you feeling small and not worthy
of connection um and
and i think on the road to addressing
shame um
it’s
it’s so important and one of the things
that i try to help my clients focus on
is
in the thing that you don’t want to
connect over and the thing that you
don’t want people to know
what is one small aspect that you can
find compassion for just one teeny tiny
aspect and even if it’s
not excusing something or making sense
of it or writing it off is not a big
deal can you at least turn to yourself
and say that must have been so hard for
you
to go through something like that or to
feel so isolated or feel so alone
finding some way to humanize it i think
gives people a fighting chance to then
dismantle it a little bit further but
it’s tough it comes up over and over and
over again and it evolves and it finds
new ways to come up and attack
everyone um so it’s definitely an
ongoing conversation but i i would say
probably start there yeah
that’s a great way to explain how about
you jay yeah i was just going to add i
think you answered that brilliantly but
i think
you know the piece i add too is i
i think a lot of times things happen to
us when we’re kids
and then we feel shame about it and then
we we look back with our adult brain and
and we’re like why didn’t why wasn’t i
smarter why didn’t i do this or why
didn’t i do that
and we take our adult brain and then
judge ourselves for like why didn’t i
act like an adult when i was five or six
why didn’t i protect myself why didn’t i
stand up for myself why did i allow this
to happen why did i do all those things
so finding that compassion
i mean i’ve had
people get pictures of themselves from
when they were kids to be like you
expected this little kid or i’ll you
know just i’ll paint a picture of like
you know a five-year-old is this tall
and they weigh
you know not very much and uh and they
should be worried about their abcs and
uh
and numbers and
learning how to share and be nice and
you were enduring this whole other thing
like i sometimes i can verbally paint
the picture in a way that hopefully can
build some compassion
um because it is that shame is just that
self-judgment of like
something is fundamentally wrong with me
and often like it’s just amazing how
much of that we just carry from our
childhood usually and and finding some
compassion for
to acknowledge like i was actually doing
the best i could yeah
yeah and the reason i ask is i get it a
lot in my circle i sit with guys who are
you know um have been to multiple i had
multiple treatment episodes and i’ll say
you know things like you know this stuff
is informed and they’ll say look at all
the terrible stuff i’ve done
look at that
and i’m like it’s it’s informed by
something yeah and you guys say that a
lot better than i do somebody steal that
[Laughter]
but it is it’s just like can i offer can
i get you to speak to a compassionate
component even just a sliver just one
tiny shift in the opposite direction
because asking someone to just
completely dismantle their shame is
is frankly too big of an ask straight
out of the gate
because i think shame actually serves as
protection if shame keeps you small
it keeps you disengaged there’s a chance
that maybe you won’t get hurt or you
won’t feel embarrassed or guilty again
and so if it keeps you small it actually
serves a function and we have to honor
that first but there’s a part that we
have to set aside and say and you’re
also keeping me from connecting maybe to
the full existence extent that i could
um
so what’s human about that what can i
connect to where’s the compassion yeah i
love that and that’s why in 2022 and
this will be for another episode
why the 12-step model doesn’t work quite
as well today because it actually keeps
us a little bit smaller than i think we
need to be and that’s a tough place to
be
so well thank you all for coming on this
has been absolutely amazing very
educational for me
everybody’s glad they got to watch you
uh have an educational experience no
it’s good but i hope it was just as
amazing for everybody else thank you
guys for coming on it’s been phenomenal
um you know what time it is chris burns
bringing on
good pro great professionals but even
better humans yeah that’s what we do
please find us next time uh sunday at 6
p.m is when we jump on
but you can find us on spotify i’ve
heard um instagram tick tock i’m the
brand ambassador we had
we are moving on up organically viral
we’re going by
check
POWERED BY BLUBRRY
