Gospel Tangents Podcast
A 360-degree view of Mormonism. We interview the best Mormon scholars, scientists, and clergy from all restoration branches, including LDS, Community of Christ, Strangites, Bickertonites, Temple Lot, Remnant, etc.
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Supporting Hard Questions: LDS Faith Journeys
Rick Bennett and Kurt Francom announce the launch of the Gospel Tangents Network and its new community forum, LDS Faith Journeys.org, designed to support members looking for support with history, doctrine, social issues, etc. The hosts discuss reframing the concept of a “faith crisis” into a “faith journey” to remove shame, with Kurt offering his “scuba gear on a bicycle” analogy to explain how personal trauma or baggage can hinder religious practice. The conversation covers Kurt’s experience as a bishop with a counselor who left the Church, his involvement in Warrior Heart boot camps, and the dangers of publicizing polygamy denial or the book Visions of Glory. Finally, Rick pays tribute to the late podcaster Troy Ables and previews upcoming guests for the network, hopefully including Janice Allred. https://youtu.be/5PayNjM0y1s 00:00 — Introduction and Launch Rick Bennett welcomes Kurt Francom, host of the Leading Saints podcast, to announce the launch of the Gospel Tangents Network. Rick introduces the network’s 2nd website, LDSFaithJourneys.org, a forum designed for members to discuss history, doctrine, social issues and other issues where members needs support. 05:00 — “Faith Crisis” vs. “Faith Journeys” Rick and Kurt discuss the terminology used for those struggling with the Church. Kurt argues that the term “Faith Crisis” carries a heavy, negative connotation of brokenness, whereas “Faith Journey” suggests a natural evolution of faith. Kurt emphasizes that avoiding the “crisis” label helps remove shame, which is often a tool of the adversary. Rick hopes people don’t stay in crisis very long and move onto more productive faith journeys. 15:00 — The Scuba Gear Analogy Kurt introduces a metaphor for religious struggle: imagining the Gospel as a functional bicycle that some members try to ride while wearing heavy “scuba gear” (trauma, baggage, or specific upbringing.) He suggests that for some, stepping away or “hitting the reset button” is necessary to remove the gear before they can successfully ride the bike again. 25:00 — A Bishop’s Heartbreak Kurt shares a personal story from his time as a bishop regarding his second counselor, an attorney and capable leader. After reading Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling in a BYU religion class, the counselor struggled with the “raw and real history” of Joseph Smith and eventually removed his name from Church records. This experience taught Kurt that just because the “standard formula” works for him, it does not mean it works for everyone. 35:00 — Warrior Heart Boot Camps Responding to a listener question, Kurt discusses his involvement with Warrior Heart, a non-denominational Christian men’s retreat. He describes it as a place to “strip away all of the baggage” of faith tradition and allow men to focus solely on their relationship with God. 45:00 — Polygamy Revisionists & Excommunication Rick asks Kurt about the trend of members being excommunicated for claiming Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. Kurt argues that while people are free to believe what they want, using a public platform to claim Brigham Young was a liar while Joseph was innocent creates a movement the Church must address. Rick adds that D&C 132 and the sealing power are so intertwined that rejecting Joseph’s polygamy creates a massive theological problem. Rick doesn’t agree with polygamy revisionists and encourages leaders to avoid taking away membership. He shares a conversation with a Jewish friend who said it is impossible to be excommunicated from the Jewish religion, even for murder. “Let God be the judge.” Rick wishes the LDS Church moved closer to that admonition. 55:00 — Visions of Glory A listener asks about the book Visions of Glory. Is it helpful or harmful? Kurt describes it as harmful because it creates unhealthy narratives about the “mechanics of heaven” and end-times obsession. He notes that it consistently sells well, alongside Under the Banner of Heaven, which shows a cultural fascination with these topics. 58:00 — Future Content and Wrap Up Rick hopes to have a future episode involving the Succession Crisis, featuring figures like James Strang and William Bickerton. They conclude by encouraging listeners to register at the new website https://ldsfaithjourneys.org to ask questions and find support.
Lost Interview with Troy Ables: A Final Tribute
I was surprised to learn that Troy Ables passed away on Thursday, Jan 15, 2026. In this special episode I’m sharing a previously unpublished interview from October 2020 to honor the memory of Troy Ables, a YouTuber and podcaster known for “The Last Dispensation,” who passed away suddenly around the age of 54. In a reversal of roles, Troy interviews Rick, delving into Rick’s personal history, his views on controversial church topics, and the evolution of Mormon historical transparency. https://youtu.be/l8GdztsUrZU 0:00 Generational Shifts and Literature The conversation highlights the generational differences in how Latter-day Saints engage with church literature. Troy recounts devouring Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” and “The Miracle of Forgiveness” as a youth, while I admitted to avoiding them, viewing them as sources of unnecessary guilt or false doctrine. We discuss how the Church has shifted from the politically conservative era of the 1980s to a modern era characterized by greater openness, exemplified by the release of the Gospel Topics Essays. 8:59 Polygamy vs. Sealing A significant portion of the interview focuses on plural marriage. I tried to articulate a clear distinction between the sealing power, which I support and finds beautiful, and the practice of polygamy, which I’m not a fan of. Specific issues such as Joseph Smith’s marriage to Fanny Alger and the secrecy kept from Emma Smith as reasons for discomfort. I don’t agree with the apologetic defense that Joseph was merely sealing families together, noting the sexual component and the sneakiness involved. 11:57 Nuance, History, and “The Middle Way” I maintain my testimony while acknowledging historical difficulties. I have a problem with the “we don’t know” defense used by some apologists, arguing that we do know certain uncomfortable facts—such as Joseph Smith being a “terrible money manager” regarding the Kirtland Safety Society. Instead, it seems better to accept Joseph Smith as an inspired but imperfect human being. 16:31 Church Discipline The discussion also touches on the treatment of intellectuals and dissidents, such as the “September Six.” The Church has been inconsistent approach to discipline and reinstatement, contrasting the rebaptism of Maxine Hanks with the denial of Lavina Fielding Anderson. I hope that the Church is becoming more tolerant of diverse voices than it has in the past. The contributions of scholars like Matt Harris and Margaret Toscano deserve great praise. 19:38 Gospel Topics Essays Origin and Purpose The essays were initiated under Church Historian Elder Marlin Jensen and continued by his successor, Elder Steven E. Snow. They were created as a direct response to the explosion of the internet, where members were encountering disturbing information about Church history that was causing them to lose their testimonies. The goal was to provide fficial good information” on difficult subjects such as the translation of the Book of Mormon, race and the priesthood, and the Mountain Meadows Massacre. The “Quiet” Launch Rick explains that the Church purposely did not advertise the essays when they were first published (roughly between 2012 and 2015). According to Elder Snow, leadership wanted the answers to be available for those who were struggling, but they feared that broadcasting the essays might cause testimony loss among members who were not previously aware of the controversies. Handling Polygamy A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the three essays regarding polygamy. Rick gives the Church credit for admitting to difficult facts, such as Joseph Smith’s practice of polyandry (marrying women who were already married) and his marriage to teenage brides. However, Rick notes that some language appeared “softened” by leadership; for example, the essays described a 14-year-old bride as being “in her 15th year” to make it sound less jarring. Overall Assessment Despite some critiques, Rick views the essays as “leaps and bounds better” than what was available in previous decades. He mentions that historian Matt Harris (along with Margaret Toscano) has written a book critiquing the essays, highlighting that while they are a vast improvement, there are still areas where the essays are weak or where the Church is hesitant to fully engage.
Brigham Didnt Dissolve Relief Society? (Katie Rich & Heather Sundahl)
Brigham didnt dissolver Relief Society! That’s what Katie Rich’s recent article on Brigham Young & the Relief Society claimed. It goes against the historical consensus and won an award at the Mormon History Association. She will explain her reasons here. We’ll also discuss how Exponent II accepts multiple positions on controversial issues. Is it hard to keep disparate opinions together? It’s only available to newsletter subscribers so sign up to gospeltangents.com/newsletter and I’ll send you the secret link to the final part of our conversation! https://youtu.be/dceZ4SYPG4Y Check out this playlist for more info on this topic! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGUWDGlv87I&list=PLLhI8GMw9sJ4VKeJi6eTv4OMaRZiZnA0h In this concluding episode, we discuss the personal impact of Exponent II and a groundbreaking re-examination of 19th-century history with authors Katie Rich and Heather Sundal. Katie shares her personal journey from being “terrified” to publish her first blog post in 2020 to becoming an award-winning historian. She describes Exponent II as an “incubator of voices,” providing a supportive community for women to move past the fear of being perceived as critical of the Church while exploring cognitive dissonance and authenticity. The authors also address the “big tent” philosophy of their organization. Both emphasize that Exponent II allows them to remain in a community that “speaks their language” without needing to explain their complex identities. Brigham didnt dissolver Relief Society The highlight of the episode is a deep dive into Katie’s award-winning research regarding Brigham Young and the Relief Society. Contrary to the widely accepted historical narrative that Brigham Young “shut down” or “disbanded” the Relief Society in 1845 due to his frustrations with Emma Smith, Katie argues that the organization actually fell apart in March 1844 due to internal conflicts over polygamy. Key insights include: Shadow Succession Crisis: While men were publicly debating who should succeed Joseph Smith, women were influencing the trajectory of the Church through their work in the Anointed Quorum and the Nauvoo Temple. Polygamy Tension: The organization fractured a full year before Brigham Young’s infamous “incendiary comments” because Emma Smith was using the Relief Society to police morality and oppose secret plural marriages that her own counselors and secretaries were already participating in. The “Great Gap”: While there was a nearly 20-year gap before the Relief Society was formally reorganized as an ecclesiastical body in 1867, women continued to lead through informal spiritual meetings, blessing one another and performing temple ordinances. Don’t miss our other conversations about Mormon feminism: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/feminism/ Copyright © 2026 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved
FBI & Feminists: Shocking Embezzlement Scandal at Exponent II (Katie Rich/Heather Sundahl)
The most shocking part of Exponent II‘s history is the organization’s “FBI embezzlement story.” In 2017, the board discovered that a trusted treasurer and close friend had embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars over a six-year period. The theft was hidden because the money—often retreat deposits and subscription fees—was occasionally covered privately by the treasurer’s family to prevent the retreat centers from reporting non-payment. The discovery led to a federal investigation, and the treasurer eventually served 17 months in federal prison. This crisis forced Exponent II to professionalize its operations, moving away from a purely trust-based system to one utilizing outside auditors, forensic accounting, and transparent financial reporting. https://youtu.be/TNqUb4KH748 Don’t miss our other conversations about Mormon feminism: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/feminism/ Copyright © 2026 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved Award-winning authors Katie Rich and Heather Sundal discuss the 50-year history of Exponent II. The organization has evolved from its 1970s roots into a modern, inclusive platform that now explicitly welcomes trans and non-binary individuals, as well as other gender minorities marginalized within the LDS Church. The authors highlight how their new book acts as an anthology, curating thousands of blog posts and magazine issues to show the organization’s growth from a focus on traditional feminism to a broader “Mormon continuum” of belief and identity. The authors also highlights the literary heart of the organization through specific essays: Lavina Fielding Anderson: An essay on “spiritual autobiography” that challenges the idea that women must always subsume their desires, instead arguing that seeking personal joy is a spiritually healthy and “radical” pursuit. Laurel Thatcher Ulrich: A 1981 piece describing the grueling balance of being a mother of five and a doctoral candidate, famously noting that “well-behaved women seldom make history”. Embezzlement Despite the financial betrayal, the authors emphasize that the community’s response was one of overwhelming generosity. From Laurel Thatcher Ulrich offering immediate financial help to the journal Dialogue paying Exponent II a $10,000 guest-editing fee, the organization’s survival proved that its “baby” was too important to the Mormon feminist community to let fail. Don’t miss our other conversations about Mormon feminism: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/feminism/ Copyright © 2026 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved
ERA & Ordain Women Controversies (Katie Rich/Heather Sundahl)
Award-winning authors Katie Rich and Heather Sundahl explore 2 controversies: Ordain Women & Equal Rights Amendment in the sometimes turbulent history of Exponent II during the late 20th century and its evolution into the digital age. The discussion centers on the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) and how it marked a “watershed moment” for Mormon feminism. While many LDS women initially supported the ERA, the Church’s stance shifted after Phyllis Schlafly convinced leadership that the amendment was a threat to the family. This led to a massive, coordinated effort where the church deployed 13,000 women to the 1977 International Women’s Year meeting in Salt Lake City to vote against nearly every proposal, including protections for victims of rape and childhood education. https://youtu.be/fW6UiSJehCo Don’t miss our other conversations about Mormon feminism: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/feminism/ Copyright © 2026 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved A central figure in this era was Sonia Johnson, a “firebrand” who founded Mormons for ERA and publicly challenged the church’s covert lobbying efforts. Her excommunication in 1979 was particularly shocking because it was based on her political activism and public reach rather than moral failings. The authors note that the Church often distinguishes between private belief and public dissent; while many shared Sonia’s views, her large platform made her a target for disciplinary action. The conversation also highlights how Exponent II has navigated these tensions by prioritizing “community over ideological purity”. Unlike more direct activist groups like Ordained Women, Exponent II provides a platform for a wide spectrum of voices, from those seeking ordination to those who find power in traditional roles. This is exemplified in their “priesthood issue,” which contrasted the experiences of women who felt marginalized by their inability to give blessings with those who, like Diane Pritchette, believe women already possess inherent spiritual power. The authors conclude by discussing the historical precedent of Mormon women giving blessings by the laying on of hands—a practice that was common until the 1930s and continues in private settings today, despite official discouragement. We highlighted the distinction between direct activist movements and the platform-based approach of Exponent II. While the two share common threads, Exponent 2 remaines a space for diverse perspectives rather than an organization that took an official stance on the ordination of women. The authors describe Ordain Women as a movement focused on direct activism, whereas Exponent II is a feminist platform that hosts a “Mormon continuum” of voices, including those who are active, inactive, ex-Mormon, or never Mormon. Many early profiles for the Ordain Women movement, which utilized a style similar to the “I’m a Mormon” campaign, were actually Exponent II bloggers. Kate Kelly, the founder of Ordain Women, participated in Exponent II retreats. She was featured on a panel that specifically discussed women and the priesthood, showcasing how the organization fostered dialogue on controversial topics without mandating a “universal stance”. A specific quarterly issue of the Exponent 2 magazine was dedicated to the priesthood to explore the topic’s complexity67. This issue highlighted two contrasting viewpoints: ◦ Abby Hansen, a member of Ordain Women, shared the pain of feeling disconnected from spiritual power, specifically the difficulty of needing to seek blessings from “random” home teachers while her husband was away in the military. ◦ A Relief Society president in Boston, recounted an instance where she laid her hands on a woman’s head to give a blessing during a crisis, operating under the belief that women already possess inherent spiritual power and do not need to “agitate” for others to give it to them. The desire for ordination is often linked to the lost history of Mormon women giving blessings. Women historically performed healings by the laying on of hands until the 1930s, as mentioned by Jonathan Stapley and Kristine Wright. The practice still occurs in private, “unauthorized” settings today among both feminists and traditionalists who feel a spiritual confidence to act in moments of crisis. Don’t miss our other conversations about Mormon feminism: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/feminism/ Copyright © 2026 Gospel Tangents All Rights Reserved
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