A Better Website Experience for Podcasters with Podpage – PCI 480

0:01 - Hey. Welcome back to Podcast Insider. - Sorry. We've been for a little bit, but, - we've been busy working on some things. - And, to that end, I've got, Brandon from, - PodPage - here. - Thank you for having me. Yeah. It's, - it's quite a - quick project, which, I I was surprised at - how quickly it went. You it probably seems - slow to you, but - for us, it was, - it was pretty good. But the the upshot - of it is - everybody that's a Blueberry hosting customer - gets a free pod page, landing page, and - the opportunity to upgrade over there and - and get the full, PodPage experience.

0:47 - Yeah. - I'm excited. You know, when we - started PodPage six years ago, I would say, - as I looked at the landscape of of - what the options were for podcasters, - I thought alright. I've always sort of split - it into into three buckets. - There's - the every podcast host gives podcasters, - you know, a basic landing page - across the board. - And, - then there was sort of this, like, there - was nowhere - then there's, like, the Wix and Squarespace - sort of point and click your way to - a podcast. And then there's WordPress, which in - some cases is point and click your way, - but it tends to be a lot more - of a - intense - process of putting a putting a page up - and keeping it up to date.

1:31 - And so we looked at that opportunity. We - said, alright. We can make it easier in - that middle area for podcasters to be able - to get a podcast - focused, easy to build website. - And that's kinda that's where we've always sat, - but we always I always I mean, I - think I talked to several hosts when we - first launched, and I said, you know, we - could also do this for you. Like, clearly, - you know, I look at the landscape of - services for podcasters. I always said, you know, - do I wanna get into hosting? And I - was like, no. Hosting just seems like you - really need to focus on being really good - at hosting to be good at hosting. - And, - I'd rather just be focused on being really - good with, you know, web publishing for podcasters. - And so - I would go to the host and say, - hey. You know, if you ever want us - to help, you know, your landing pages can't - be a good use of your resources. Your - resources are better set making great hosting products.

2:18 - And so, - and and so it's sort of been in - the back burner for a long time of, - like, we should we it would be really - cool to do this, but we've never done - it. And so I'm very excited, - to launch this with you all. Right. And, - you know, and we've always, you know, been - WordPress focused, - but we do it a little differently than - than say, you know, putting your podcast - on a WordPress site. We generate the podcast - from a WordPress site. Mhmm. And - that's good for people that like WordPress or - know WordPress. - But I'm finding it harder and harder to - start new people, - you know, down that path. And, you know, - so if you're, you know, we'll still support - WordPress, - fully, but, - you know, this is just - a much - easier - onboarding - for people and gives them, you know, the - same advantages - as, you know, building your own website. That's - why you are building a website. You're just - doing it based on - the RSS feed and, - you know, I I just, you know, it's - a no brainer. I I don't know why - we didn't do it before. Well, - truth be told, we were gonna try to - build a competitor to you, - and that was how that all started. And - we got to look at it. This is - hard and, you know, we're not good at - this.

3:37 - So why don't we just, give it to - somebody that's, - good at it, and then we can focus - on what we're good at? You know, it's - funny. I a lot of people look at - PodPage, - especially on the more technical - side of my world, And they say this, - you know, this is the dumbest little - simple product. - You know? It's like you've got a podcast. - They there's there's data in there. You just - make a website based on the product. And - it was. I mean, for the first couple - weeks of building it, it was pretty simple. - And then it was like, oh, the amount - of - nuance that goes into doing it well - still surprises me. - I still spend tons of time refining it - and smoothing out bugs and following new Google - and schema guidelines on how to represent you - know, audio on a website so that Google - and now the AI tools can understand what - it is. It's just it ends up being - an endless list of - of things, and then you take into account - what users typically will want to do to - customize it. And, - you know, you know, it starts easy, and - then it just keeps going. And, you have - to have this you have to sort of - hold the line on, well, what's gonna be - and I I think that we've faltered on - this many times over the six years where - we've added way too much customization. I'm actually - working on, - starting to dig into a project right now - to simplify - the dashboard - because there's just we've we've built too much.

5:00 - There's too many features on it. There's areas - that we've gone astray. I mean, like, we - built this thing that really isn't core to - podcast websites. And, - yeah, 10 users used it, but not thousands - of users. And because it's there, it's made - the the platform harder to to navigate and - all that. So - there's just a lot to it. It's not - just a quick landing page, - if you want to serve people's needs of - having a good website. And so Well, it - works the same way with hosting. You know, - you build a feature and 12 people use - it. - Is it worth keeping that feature around? Yeah. - Yeah. You know, so a lot of lot - of what we've been doing this year is, - is we call it pair and polish. You - know, we're getting rid of stuff that we're - not good at or isn't used, and we're - polishing up the stuff that we are good - at and people will use.

5:51 - And that's always been, you know, this this - year has been kind of our focus, and, - you know, the PodPage, - integration was, was just like a no brainer, - you know, when you I don't know whether - I came to you first or you came - to me first or how that all worked, - but, - I I think it, it's I think it's - gonna be successful on, on both parts. Yeah. - We're seeing some some uptake for sure. And, - you know, what you've done with, you know, - just just the basic, - landing pages that we had, just sort of - replicating that, making those better - has just made a world of difference in - how they look and, you know, how they - act. And, - yeah, I'm I'm loving it. I you know, - I was a PodPage customer - prior to that. I I wanted to try - you guys out, on a on a little - side project I had going, and - and, - yeah, I'm loving it. Well, I think one - of the core when you and I started - talking about this, it was there was a - few at least, I believe, there was a - few core things that we needed to get - right if we were to do it. One - of them was you all have always always - hosted your landing pages on podcast.show, or that's - what you're currently they're currently on. Right? And - so when we moved the back end of - the website - management from - the Blueberry side to the pod page side, - the number one thing was no links can - break. Right? It's still gonna be podcast.show - slash whatever the podcast name is. Like, this - this can't have any effect on your existing - customers. They just will see look at their - website one day, and it will look better,

7:22 - probably have have better SEO, - and just happen to be hosted on our - back end. But for most customers we talked - about, we were like, they won't even know - they won't know or care. They'll just see - that they have a nicer looking website. Yeah. - And so that was sort of point number - one as we were like, let's make sure - that it's a it's there's no negative. It's - just better for the existing users. And then - for anyone who cares enough to who, like, - in the past might have said, okay. I - want something better. - Well, in the past, they would have had - to migrate over to a pod page or - a Squarespace or a WordPress. You know, they - would have to create a new website and - then move it over. - It's not as wanna make this easy where - it's just a button. Right? They just it's - the same website. Everything's the same. They just - hit a button, and then they can upgrade - and add a bunch of features. And so - I feel like we got those two things.

8:07 - Like, those are sort of the two things - we wanted to get really right. And then - the third - was, - you know, there's I don't know how many - there's hundreds of design settings in pod page - to make your site look different. The one - thing we didn't want people to do was - if they wanted to just change their color, - they had to sign up for PodPage, find - it in the dashboard, go through this whole - process. So we were like, let's just make - a couple settings - basic settings. You change your color. You can - change your dark mode. You can change your - URL. - You don't need to create a pod page - account. You don't even need to know pod - page exists to do that. You can just - do that through Blueberry. If you wanna get - heavy handed with your customization, then come over - and claim it, and you have all the - all the features and tools. Yeah. - So I I think at this point, it's - it's landed pretty well.

8:48 - It's been really fun to work with your - team on initial user feedback and figure out - what we need to make better, - figure out what's working and what's not. So, - Yeah. So far, I haven't run into anything - that's, - been a show stopper. - No pun intended. - But, you know, it but, you know, our - core value here at Blueberry is you should - have your own website, - and that's also, you know, PodPage is core - one of their core you know, one of - your core values over there, and it's just - been - I don't know. It's this is probably the - smoothest integration we've ever done with anybody. I'd - I'm, you know, highly impressed and, you know, - Grant and, - Aaron and couple other people on our team - and - and then, I guess, just you - doing the dev on your side. And, yeah, - it's it's it's slick. I I I am - impressed, - and, you know, I would encourage you if - you, you know, if you are hosting customer - with us, - you know, go ahead and claim your page - over there. See what you can do. There's - quite a bit of, - of customization.

9:55 - And, you know, - How much do you need? You know? Who - knows? But that's that's up to the individual. - Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, right now, every - we set it up where every Blueberry customer - has, - the same template with different colors depending on - what your podcast artwork is. We we kinda - make a guess looking at your podcast artwork - and say, here's what your primary color is. - And we set up the page and then, - and then, you know, you can change dark - mode, you can change colors, but when you - come in, you can choose an entirely different - design template and you can make tons of - design customizations. And so, - so, you know, for someone who just is - like, I like the page, but maybe it - doesn't represent the brand that I'm trying to - push out there. Maybe I've got, like, a - true crime podcast, and I want something that - doesn't have rounded corners and is darker. And, - you know, like, there's just certain tones. Like, - you can come in, and you can probably - find a template that'll do that for you - and do tons of design customizations - too. You know, then I work a lot - in support as well and - and, - not having to worry about, - you know, my fonts look funny or, you - know, all that stuff that you guys are - good at that Yeah. You know, I I'm - not a web designer. There's there's no way - in heck I can make a decent looking - website Yeah.

11:09 - You know, by myself. - And so, you know, you know, and I've - I've really familiar with WordPress, - and I can make it do most of - what I want to do, but I find - it a lot easier with you guys, guys, - for for myself even just design wise. - Well, I mean, WordPress is amazing. We I - always tell people - when a customer of PodPage, even long term - customers come to me and say, hey. I'm - quitting. I'm closing my countdown, and I say, - oh, what's you know, what did we do - wrong? They're like, no. We just need to - move to WordPress because we need our business - is growing, and we need more customization - than you all offer. You know, in in - some cases, someone like me might then run - and try to, like, build a million toggles - to try to make them happy.

11:52 - Yeah. But in most cases, - you know, I'm super thrilled for them because - I'm like, oh, like, if you need that - level of customization, that means you probably have - are making some good money, have a big - audience, have someone who can help you - get what you need out of WordPress. - And that's always a great step. I mean, - they're taking a step up because they're they're - they're not leaving because of some dumb reason. - They're leaving because they they just need more - than I can give them. And if we - made our platform as customizable as WordPress, then - we would be then it would be too - hard to use for everyone else. Yeah. And - that's You know? I think WordPress is amazing. - It's just it's amazing if you need a - certain set of things. But in most cases, - it's overkill, especially at the beginning of a - project. You know, - the the good thing about WordPress is it's - customizable.

12:35 - Bad thing about WordPress is it's customizable, - and you can really, you know, mess up. - And, of course, a lot of the Internet - or a lot of the web - is WordPress, so that makes it kind of - more of a target than some of the, - you know, some of the other web technology. - So you have to, you know, be concerned - with security. You gotta, you know, there's there's - I mean, it's, like I said, we fully - support it, and, you know, we will continue - to do so, but, you know, it's not - for everybody. - Mhmm. And so, you know, we're it's nice - to be able to expand our - web presence, - for our customers - through you guys.

13:17 - Yep. And we talked to other other web - companies about, you know, adding podcasting to their - platform, and - and that kinda went nowhere. - So which is fine. You know? Yeah. You - know, if you you wanna do a Wix - site, do a Wix site, but you're gonna - have to manually publish your show. This is - this is pretty automatic. - And, you know, you guys have Podping now, - which is cool, so that makes it update - a little bit quicker. And and Yeah. That - was fun. I mean, we we've I've looked - at Podping for a long time. You know, - the way that we typically update websites is - it's a pretty involved - scheduler - depending on when the last podcast - episode was released, depending on what your generic - what's your general release cadence is. You know, - we try to my ultimate goal, it saves - us work, and it saves post bandwidth, but - I wanna - only check the feed when I think there's - gonna might be a new episode. I don't - wanna just check it all the time. But - it's hard because you kinda don't know. I - mean, a podcaster might release a random episode - on a Tuesday even though they always release - on Thursday. Mhmm. And if you're not checking - on Tuesday, then they're mad because we didn't - pull in the episode. And so - I've we've got a we've always had some - kind of, like, a kind of a crazy - calculus on when to check next, and we - always over index on check more often than - not. Yeah.

14:34 - But we'll you know, if we see that - you haven't released an episode in a couple - weeks or a couple months or a couple - you know, we'll Yeah. We'll start really backing - off. But we always try to check, you - know, to see if there's anything there if - you're an active paying customer. But with Podping, - it's nice because we can - we can just we get a ping from - you all that says, hey. There's a new - episode out. Mhmm. And - we can then immediately check the feed. And - then if we if we are confident, hey. - We're getting the latest info, - then we can stop pinging Blueberry all the - time about new episodes because we're - I will say, - and I won't name any any hosting names, - but what I what I have found, we - started getting since we introduced this, we've started - getting, I would say, an uptick of customer - support emails around episodes not updating. And what - I was looking into it, and what I - found - was there are some places that some hosts - that use Podpink - that - will - that the customer goes in, they update their - show, - the Podpink goes out, we check the feed.

15:35 - When we check the feed, the feed is - either cached - or, - it so it's almost like the host says, - hey. There's a new episode. We then check, - and there is no new episode. - Yeah. But what we were doing is we - were saying, oh, well, if we're getting pod - pings, then let's not check for new episodes - as often. So we actually made this update - last week - where we started getting all these tickets saying, - hey. I'm not my episodes aren't publishing till, - like, six hours later. And I was like, - well, that's because in sick what we do - is we basically say, like, wait a bunch - of hours before we check again. Because in - theory, - we just got the new episode. We don't - need to be checking. And then we looked, - and we were like, oh, in certain cases, - the feed actually isn't up to date when - the ping goes out - or it's cached or something like that. And - so we've had to I mean, we're still - tweaking it, but there's a lot of promise - to it being to being great. I wish - that, - now I'm just getting into Podping, but, - I wish, you know, we get this update - calls whenever something happens. Mhmm. And it would - be awesome if Podping included - little bit more context about what the update - was because we get this the ping goes - out regardless if you added an episode or - updated your episode number in an episode from - a year ago. Like, there's it basically just - says, hey. The feed is updated. Go - poll it. And it would be really cool - if it was like, hey. There's a pod - ping because episode 54 has new summary or - something like that. That would that's my desire - for the future would be just like a - teeny bit of metadata - to let us know what to look for - because that would be even more helpful. But - Right. But, you know, it it it does - improve the the update time in most cases.

17:04 - You know? Yeah. Of course, if the feed's - cached, that doesn't help you any. But I - think we made some fixes that that address - some of that. But Dave Jackson, who, you - know, former Libsyn - employee and our head of podcasting and school - podcasting founder and just awesome overall person, he - has 12 podcasts or something. - He, you know, even on our team, he - ping pinged me, and he was like, I - can't believe how fast it updates. He's like, - I, like, hit I think he it was - a Captivate show. He's got shows on every - platform. Sure. And, - and because he was always constantly checking the - new features and stuff like that. And so - he was like, I updated on Captivate, - or maybe it was one of his Blueberry - shows, and he was like and by the - time I got back, I mean, I just - went over to Gmail. I already had an - update from PodPage saying we just pulled in - your new episode. He was like, I just - hit save.

17:47 - So it was it's very cool when it - works well. It's just Yeah. Now if we - could just get Apple and Spotify to use - PodPing - That would be also amazing. That would be - good, you know, because I I think probably - 25% - of our support tickets is, I just published - my episode, and it's not on Apple yet. - Yep. - And that's Well, yeah, someone else, you know, - the whole again, some and sometimes it's caching - because I I we were dealing with a - person who released at 9AM on, you know, - Tuesdays. And so Mhmm. He said, hey. My - episode didn't publish. I just hit publish. And - I went to his feed, and I was - like, it's not in your feed. I mean, - I don't like it could - be some somewhere in the caching layer.

18:29 - It's just not in your we can't get - it because it's not in your feed. I - know you hit publish on whatever the hosting - platform was, but, - it just hasn't. You got to give it - a little bit of time. But Yeah. There's - always there's always a little bit of lag - there. - And, - you know, the - thing we we run into with caching - is is similar to you. You know? They - they'll have, like, I I I've logged into - people's WordPress there, or had them log into - it on a Zoom call, and they'll have - four different caching - plugins. - Like, really? - You know, you're gonna clear your cache. Yeah. - You publish something, you know, and then WordPress - is supposed to do that.

19:10 - And, you know, on our platform, you know, - when you're doing it right from Blueberry, - we do a pretty good job of clearing - that cache. - You know, that's - that's one of the things that that happens - when you hit publish. It just, you know, - we put it in the feed, - clear the cache. - And, you know, sometimes, - you know, you know how the Internet is. - Things don't always work the way you want - them to. But - But it is. I mean, it's true. We - there's also I mean, there's so many layers - of caching, and caching is great. And for - anyone who's nontechnical listening to this, caching is - essentially you just save whatever the thing that - was in the database in memory. So it's - faster when someone goes to look at it. - So every time someone hits your website, when - you go to pod page, most cases, when - you go to PodPage, it's not pulling all - the data from the PodPage database. It's it's - saving it in memory, which is much faster, - puts less load on the database, which makes - everything faster. So the page loads faster, which - makes Google happy, and so Google ends up - ranking your website higher because it's a faster - page load. It just moves less information across - the Internet. It's it's generally - what most people will do. And so it's - good. But the problem with caching and saving - things in memory is if something gets updated - in the database and you go to the - website and you haven't - erased that, like, memory layer, it's not gonna - get the new update from the database and - then something will seem old. That's what we're - talking about. Right. So Yeah. This is this - is a lot on the GeekGear side. Yeah.

20:31 - Many people will put many layers of cache. - You know, we have in our code base, - we have a a layer of cache, but - then there's also when you go to the - domain name, the domain name sits behind has - cache. So this is a common it's like - cache is a blessing and a curse because - for an engineer, - it's it's always used to be a joke - where it was just like, - it's broken. Oh, we'll just look at the - caching. Because you do all this work to - change a feature and then it doesn't work. - It's like, oh, it's because the cache hasn't - updated yet. I run I run into that, - like I said, all the time, and - and - it - you know, caching's good. It speeds things up. - But, you know, - less horsepower needed on the server and, - you know, the whole whole thing. But, you - know, like I said, we're this this an - episode's a little geekier than than the average, - but, that's alright.

21:18 - These are but so this isn't a good - example of these are the things that - a podcaster definitely shouldn't have to worry about. - Right. Right? Definitely shouldn't have to worry about. - And which is why, you know, places like - Blueberry and PodPage exist because, you know, in - twenty years ago, the podcaster was having to - figure out how to set up audio files - on their own server. - And so but but then, you know, taking - it a step further, some of the stuff - is stuff that like, website caching is something - that Blueberry shouldn't have to worry about. Blueberry - should be working on caching their or, you - know, making their own feeds faster and getting - Apple to update faster and all that stuff. - It shouldn't be making their landing pages load - faster. And so that's what that's why I - feel like working with you all and - and being able to do that on our - end makes it just better for everyone. You - will you can spend more time focused on - making a great posting product, and podcasters can - spend more time just focusing on podcasting and - creating content.

22:10 - And then we can just handle that one - website layer. So Right. Yeah. You know, there's - well, a lot of things are changing in - the podcast world, - you know, especially around video. - So that that's gonna be a whole another - a whole another thing - coming soon as, - you know, as all this support for video. - So, you know, we were really getting an - education over here. You know, we've always supported - video the old fashioned way by sending it - out in enclosures, - but, now it's gonna be a little more - complicated. - Thanks, Apple. - But that's alright. You know? It's a better - experience for the listener, - the viewer, however you wanna put that.

22:53 - So I'm fascinated by by what's happening with - video because - in - in in some cases and this is maybe - a controversial comment because podcasting is open. - But in some cases, - the the - the podcasting - openness moved so slow - on video - that it almost ceded - it to YouTube because, like, you know, a - podcaster who needs a video version of their - podcast, that is a solved problem, - because most people put it on YouTube. And - so to the point where now people call - YouTube channels podcasts, and they don't even have - a feed because they just have a you - know? And so the whole thing got so - inverted, and the word got so misused that - it's gonna be interesting to see see what - Apple and Spotify I mean, spot I think - video support in these players is good, but - and, you know, I talked to some podcast - and they're like, oh, wait. So now I've - gotta upload it to my host and also - YouTube. Do I still put it on YouTube?

23:47 - Can I just use my YouTube as my - I already have my YouTube one set up? - Can I just play that in Apple? And, - of course, Apple doesn't wanna be so the - whole thing Right. For PodPage, - what we do with video and we've done - for years is when if you set it - up, you set tell us what your YouTube - channel is or your YouTube playlist for your - episodes. And when we import an episode from - your feed, we go over to your YouTube - playlist - for your episodes, and we find the find - the matching one. We import that and associate - it with your episode. And then on your - website, - you have your audio player with from and - that player is a Blueberry player or Buzzsprout - player, whoever it happens to be your host. - And then above it is a big YouTube - thing. And we I mean, I focused on - that early - because if you're going to a website - to hear an episode, - you're probably not just gonna hit play on - a player and sit there and stare at - the screen.

24:40 - At that point, you might as well the - goal should be get them into Spotify or - Apple or wherever they're listening to their podcast. - But there's a video on the screen. You - actually just might sit there and watch it. - And so it was, like, because websites need - to be visual, let's make sure that this - thing - shows the video. So it's a it's a - we just actually moved that feature from our - sort of our top tier into our middle - tier, which is our more more popular tier - because it's just such a better experience for - end users. - But it's YouTube reliant. Right? And if you - do have YouTube if you have video in - your feed through HLS or any of these - other mechanisms, - that'll show up on the pod page feed - also just automatically. But up to this point, - everyone's just sort of been more YouTube focused. - So Yeah. We we kinda flipped the script - on them with our Vidtopod, - project. Mhmm.

25:24 - So, you know, we can turn your - YouTube playlist - into an actual audio podcast. It's not video. - It's audio. - But, you know, there's a lot of YouTube - channels. It's just a couple guys talking into - a microphone, so, you know, the visual part - of it isn't as important. - Yep. But, - yeah, that's We, - we had two things. I used to actually - help people manually. It wasn't as as - nice as your solution. But I went to - a couple this is probably four years ago. - I used to go to - YouTube channels that I respected - Mhmm. Who didn't have pod who didn't even - consider it a podcast. It was just their - YouTube thing. And I was like, why don't - you you're interviewing people on YouTube. Like, just - turn just take the audio - and do a podcast. Now probably - was, a little more - meticulous about it than I should have been - because I would set them up with an - audio editor, and I you know, we would - make a really nice sounding podcast. We'd remix - the audio, and we'd add intros, and we - we'd sort of framed it up to be - a podcast.

26:30 - And with the goal of, hey. If this - you know, whoever the creator was, you pay - this editor x amount of dollars per episode, - they'll just do everything and it'll set and - we'll release it into the feed, and it'll - be on all the channels. I probably did - that for half a dozen to a dozen - people, - and thinking, oh, this will grow the market. - But, like, ultimately, - it kinda was too expensive for them because - they were like, well, we, you know, can't - we just do this automatically? So it's your - solution I didn't know about or didn't exist - back then. But, - I think it's it's like a no brainer - because I would say to these people, hey, - you're already doing the work. You're doing all - of the hard stuff, - and you're missing a distribution channel. Even if - you get 10 listens a week from Apple - Podcasts or, you know, whatever, Spotify, it's better - to do that than to not get those - listens. You never know.

27:14 - So - Yeah. Yeah. - I I I listen to a show. This - guy is prolific. - He does two episodes on YouTube a day, - fifteen minutes apiece, you know, just single story - episodes. - And I'm like, I don't want to sit - and watch you talk into your microphone. - Let's do this. So I got him on - Vidapod, - and it's been great. You know, I can - be out mowing the lawn, whatever, you know? - So - because, you know, what he's doing wasn't necessarily - visual. - Yeah. But, yeah, I think, you know, with - all this, you know, HLS - and - and, you know, all the different video - channels, you know, ultimately, it'd be nice to - just upload it once somewhere, - have it go everywhere. Mhmm. And I think - we're gonna get to that goal sometime this - year - with Blueberry as well as, you know, I'm - sure others are doing the same sort of - thing. And Yeah.

28:08 - I tried - pre at the beginning of PodPage, I was - like, oh, I'll build a suite of tools - for podcasters - that solve specific problems. So I had PodPage. - I had Pod Reviews, - which was just import reviews and tweet them - and build a dashboard to analyze them. - It wasn't - you know, there was a couple tools that - were like that already out there, and they - were they did a great job. But I - kinda was like, oh, there's people who I'm - building a bunch of stuff that helps is - helpful for the website, but, also, there's people - who are on WordPress who might want this. - And so one of them was PodTube, - because everything has to be called Pod something. - And Or Tube something. - Yeah. And so PodTube was literally like, okay.

28:50 - Once we import your audio, we're gonna create - a video version of it, which is just, - you know, your artwork with an audiogram. We're - gonna post it on YouTube. Same concept, like - but we I never released it, a, I - think it was expensive to run, and b, - it was, like, it just wasn't a good - product. Like, no one wants to sit on - YouTube and just look at an an audiogram - play. So Well, that's that's how, - podcasts get distributed to YouTube now. - You can put your RSS feed in over - there, - and they'll do a it's not even an - audiogram. It's just static image. Yeah. - And Yeah. - It's, you know, it's not compelling. - No. It's not. The the - the Google and I disclaimer, I used to - work for Google before doing podcasting.

29:32 - But watching their their - podcast strategy or lack thereof of a podcast - strategy has been, - interesting. - They've been moving around. - And then when they were, like, they had - their big, like, the big launch was part - of YouTube music, and now podcasters have their - YouTube channel with their podcast, but then they - also have a YouTube music, channel, like, playlist. - It's so confusing. - Yeah. And it's very typical of I mean, - I've seen it at other big companies, but - Google without they didn't wanna make a hard - decision and just, like, you know, choose one - path. They were choosing a bunch of paths, - and now it's very confusing - where they you know, you think about it. - They really should have run away with the - whole thing. - Yeah. They could have, - for sure.

30:12 - You know, we had a had a customer - that did, Vidapod. - So they had a playlist on YouTube. - They made it into an audio, - and then they submitted it to YouTube music. - So what that did was created a loop - because the - fake video would go on YouTube in their - channel, - and then we would pull that down again - Uh-huh. Make an audio, put it in the - RSS feed. - So, you know, I looked at this guy's - YouTube channel, and he had, like, every other - you know, it was a video, an audio, - a video, an audio - of the same episode, - you know, for, like - it was probably 50 of them on there - by the time I figured out what was - going on. Uh-huh.

30:56 - That's funny. - We have a lot of people who will - well, they used to do this. We sort - of women, they can still do it, but - they'll set up that YouTube matching that I - talked about. It's all automated, - but it'll end up pulling in sort of - a static image YouTube video. Mhmm. And so - you go to their website, and there's the - blueberry player or whatever player they use. And - then above it, there's a YouTube player that - just shows the artwork, and you just listen - to it. And I have to go to - them and say, this is not adding any - additional user value to the page. Like, take - it off because it's distracting. You because users - will come and be like, I must be - doing something wrong. I'm hitting play on the - video, and it's not showing me a video. - It's just showing me the big album cover - that's right below it. Yeah. So And video, - you know, video is harder to do.

31:37 - That's the other thing for users. - You know, it's - bad enough if you, you know, have to - edit your audio. - Well, - jeez. You know, if you got video and - audio that you gotta deal with, you know, - so I, you know, I I - don't know whether, you know, it's gonna really - take off like, people suspect it will. - But, you know, the the option's there. That's - the that's the good thing. You know, you - can do as much or as little as - you want and still get your word out. - I think it's nice - if, - in the cases where - it will be okay. I think the perfect - world and I Spotify does this pretty well - at this point. They're the only ones that - do it well when they have a video - podcast. It's nice to be, in some cases, - being able to sit and watch - the show Mhmm. People chatting with each other, - you know, because I'm sitting in front of - my computer. And then when I get in - my car, it just continues, and I'm now - listening to it. And there's no you know, - where before or for most most cases, you - know, you watch the YouTube you're watching it - on YouTube, then you get in your car, - you pull it up on Apple Podcasts or - Spotify, and then you have to find where - you were in the show. Like, so that - that seamless handoff, I think there's gonna be - value there once it's figured out. Yeah. App - Apple's doing the same thing and, - you know, Spotify you know, but Spotify was - the first that were was doing it properly.

32:59 - Now I pay YouTube - for the privilege of being able to stick - the phone in my pocket with the screen - and still listen to - YouTube. So that, you know, - that sort of is there too, but you - have to pay them for it. - Yeah. - You know, but I I think, you know, - the HLS, that makes it a little easier. - But the the thing is is if you - want your audio to be different than your - video, then that's not gonna work for you. - Yep. - You know, which, - you know, that's okay. You know? - Just, you know, because a lot of people - like to take the audio out of their - video and then edit it up and put - intros and and all that stuff. And, well, - in that case, do it the old way - with two feeds. No big deal. Yep. You - know? That was one thing I was gonna - ask you about. Maybe not this may not - be the right place, but, - you know, what if I have one show - but with two feeds?

33:54 - Is that something that's even possible? - You end up So I forget what who - the first person who did this was. - It's it's been sort of, like, on the - do we build something to solve this problem - list for five years - because it only really comes up maybe once - a year where someone comes in and says, - I've got these two feeds. Now a lot - of for for the first few years, it - was I have an audio feed and a - video feed. Can I load them both in? - The way that we built - PodPage was is very much reliant on there - is one website per feed. Yeah. Right? You - just have this one website, and it's linked - to a feed, and the episodes come in - from that one feed. So the concept of - saying, like, oh, one website could have multiple - feeds - never I mean, that would be such a - re rearchitecture of the system that Sure. Yeah.

34:40 - We never kind of considered doing it. But, - where we went with so this you know, - the only time that ever happens where it's - kind of multiple - websites per - multiple feeds per website is our network product - where if you're a network, you can come - and say, hey. I've got 10 different shows, - and I'd like to put them all at - mynetwork.com. - And so the way that works is you - essentially have mynetwork.com - is where the show sit. And then mynetwork.com/show/mikeshow - is - is - on the not mynetwork.com, - but it's its own kind of it's actually, - in our system, a totally different website. - But it just sits underneath the main website. - And so that solution doesn't really work well - for someone who has, you know, a couple - podcasts or - because most of the time, they want their - podcast to be different brands anyway. And then - if you have one podcast that's a video - and an audio, then you end up having - this weird thing where you kind of have - two websites for the same podcast, and it's - confusing Google. So we don't have a great - solution for that. But Right. Yeah. VHS video.

35:38 - Not that that big of a an ask - because, you know, there's not a lot of - shows doing that. I know, - Todd's, - Geek News Central had, - an audio and a video feed, - and and a new media show does still. - But I I think once this HLS thing - takes off, that'll get combined into one feed. - And - Exactly. I mean, that's sort of been my - belief from the beginning is that - there shouldn't be two feeds for Yeah. The - same show. Right? There should be one feed - that has - you know, multiple multiple formats. - And so Yeah. And that's, you know, - that's probably how that's gonna go there with - alternate enclosures. - You know, you could have the video in - the alternate, and - that works. And, you know, there's there's a - whole lot of permutations to this. I'm I'm - anxious to see what what our customers are - gonna do for, science experiments - when all this stuff gets - gets, fleshed out. But Yeah. Yeah. It's - a it's a good thing. You know, the - the whole idea of having a website in - the first place is just to have a - place where - everything happens. You know?

36:49 - And, - you know, we've always said that, you know, - you need to have, as Todd used to - call it, a moon base alpha. - You know? - Or, you know, like Spotify and YouTube and - few other places - might take us take your show down for - whatever reason, technical reason or political reason or - whatever. - And - you need to have a place where - people will find you regardless of whether you - got taken off Apple or taken off of - Spotify or whatever. - You know? And then, you know, there's multiple - reasons for that kind of stuff, but, - you know, that's the other one we always - end up getting a lot of tickets about.

37:31 - Well, my episode's everywhere except for - x, you know, platform, whatever platform, - not not x Twitter, but just, you know, - just a generic platform and, like, I don't - know. You know? It's working everywhere else. - I don't know what they did over there. - So - you believe there's 125 - places you can listen to a pod - podcast? - It's amazing. Yeah. And there's probably more than - that. There's probably more I was gonna say. - That actually seemed I mean, - a 125 - official players would be like, okay. I get - that. If there's but there's I was trying - to explain this to someone the other day - where I was like, your - your podcast is - limitless spots because whoever just wants to consume - the fee can just publish it. There's no - there's no gate to in most cases, most - gate until I get. So - it can be anywhere. And we always tell - people about this, about their website because they - have they'll have a website, - but they don't put it on in their - feed. So they don't go to their host - and say, here's my official website. They just - use whatever their host website is. And - and I'm like, it's amazing opportunity to be - able to do that because in most cases, - backlinks are a huge pain in the ass - to get. You know, you've got to go - to some website and say, hey, can you - can you link to my page? But - with a podcast, as soon as you have, - you know, you put your your feed or - your website into the feed, - you could be linked back to by hundreds - of websites in a minute. So that's why - when you put if you have a website - and you add your custom - domain, very quickly, your domain, your website can - be the number one spot on Google that - Google's pointing people to because, suddenly, Google's getting - signal from everywhere

39:02 - that this is the place to go for - information. And so, - it's a huge missed opportunity when someone has - gone to the trouble of creating a website, - setting up a website, getting a domain, and - then they don't add it to their podcast - feed. - So we do that check whenever someone logs - into the pod page dashboard. We say, have - you have you set this as your domain? - Right. Because it's again, this you're just losing - traffic, and you you can't expect this SEO - to go up if you're not even putting - it in your feed. - Right. Yeah. - SEO is getting harder - anyway now with the all the AI stuff, - but I I think the principles are all - kind of the same. - The what? The principles of, you know, how - how to be found on an AI search - versus, - you know, standard SEO.

39:44 - Mhmm. - I'm sure it's a bit different, but - I think the principles are gonna be about - the same as far as you know? For - any of these things, any any - anyone you say, - tell me about your show, Cup of Trevor - City. Right? Any and if you're asking Google, - if you're asking OpenAI, if you're asking, - me. Right? We're all trying to get we're - all trying to we're all gonna try to - get the information from the canonical source, the - main place on the Internet to go for - that information. Right? Like, I'm not gonna try - to, you know, go to some other website - to learn about it. Like, the first place - I'm gonna go is show me your website. - Like, if you're looking for hours, - you know, the hours of a restaurant, you're - probably better off going to the restaurant's website - than you are or calling the restaurant than - going to Yelp because Yelp, it might be - out of date. Right? So - all of this is like you - all of the place the oracles you ask - for information are all gonna say, well, what's - the main spot I should get this information?

40:42 - And they're always gonna defer to someone's website - Right. Over - a directory listing because they know, like, if - I'm gonna get information about Cup of Traverse - City, is there a website out there called - Cup of Traverse City? And is it about - the pie oh, there is. Okay. Well, that's - definitely gonna be the place that has the - most accurate information. - And so, - whether you're Google or AI, you're gonna do - the same thing. And so - the - with the difference ends up being and, again, - here's another one of those things that we - focus on, but a podcast host probably doesn't - wanna go deep on. But, like, when you're - setting up a website - and you're - you know? Yes. You can set up a - website, and you can just write a bunch - of text on it. - But if you want Google - to have a better shot in understanding what - the website is, there's all kinds of hidden - tags you put through the code.

41:30 - You know, things like, hey. Here's what here's - the transcript. This is a transcript for a - podcast episode. The podcast episode it is a - transcript for is part of this podcast series. - And there's all this code that no one - ever sees that's hidden in there because it - doesn't even show on the website. It's literally - just just for the robots to read, and - it's structured in a way that makes it - easy for the robots to read. So when - Google goes to the page, they don't have - to do a lot of work, and no - robot not no one wants to do more - work than they need to. So you've got - all this stuff that you're doing for Google - already, and they publish. They say, hey. If - you want, you know, sometimes you'll search for - something and Google have, like, the you know, - a structured information at the top in the - form of questions. - Like, if you click in there, all of - those have sources. And the reason those should - flow to the top is because the sources - have structured those questions to be answered. Right?

42:16 - So anyway, pod page does all that and - has always done all that for Google. And - that's why our websites rank so high. But - now in the age of AI agents - and Claude and, OpenAI, they they're - asking the same. They go to the same - website and ask the same questions and write. - And, you know, the default is we'll just - read all the code that Google has always - read, - but there's a, there's additional code that you - can add, - into a website into a web page, meaning - like a single page and also a website. - Mhmm. With Google, it's a site map - that tells you where all the links are, - and there's a different file that you can - provide to Google, Claude and catchy p t. - And that that stuff is like, if you - do it, they're more likely to understand your - website.

43:00 - And so, again, these are things that we - do, - that, you know, are best practices, and we're - learning, you know, on a almost on a - daily basis, some new thing for AI - comes out that we need to Yeah. And - that's definitely not something we do here at - Blueberry. - Yeah. But, like, the fundamentals are the same - where it's like you just need - you need to do it if you want - these things, if you wanted to understand what's - going on. So, - anyway, yeah, it's a, - it's it's a fun it's it's sort of - a fun world to continue to iterate. And - we we're seeing more and more traffic - come from, - AI agents - Yeah. Then - I mean, mean, it's just it's just going - up, and it will keep going up. So - Yeah.

43:44 - Well, anyway, - I I think we've covered pretty much what - we wanted to. Is there anything else you - wanted to say? No. Like I said, it's - been really fun to this project has been - really great. It's been fun to to launch - all this stuff. And if you're a Blueberry - customer - with your new landing page, like, the best - thing you could do as far as our - partnership is concerned Mhmm. Is give a lot - of critical feedback, - constructive criticism, - to the Blueberry team about what you would - like how things should be could be different - or better. And come over, and if you're - interested, come go through the process of claiming - your pod page, - and then tell the PodPage team what could - we could be doing better. Because, you know, - this is a first for both of us, - and we're we wanna make it easy and, - like, a a good experience on both sides.

44:28 - We want the sum of these two parts - to be better than them separately. So Right. - And the the claiming process is pretty easy. - Just go to the dashboard and and the - manage show area, look for landing page, and - there'll be a little button And we we - built those sign in with Blueberry connections, so - you don't even have to come over and - create a new username and password. You just - sign in with your existing Blueberry account. Account. - Yep. Yep. So they that's even handier. - Yeah. Hopefully, it's smooth. Yeah. Yeah. - So, well, anyway, thanks for being on, Brandon. - And, - you said if, you're a Blueberry customer or - wanna be a Blueberry customer, come check it - out. - Cool. - Awesome. - Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

45:09 - Yep.