Should I Start or Join a Podcast Network?

0:00 Is what happens if a show gets really big, cuz that could happen, you know, in fact, that's kinda what you're going for. But what happens to the rest of the shows on the network? You're listening to Podcast Insider hosted by Mike Dell. Todd Cochran, and Mackenzie Bennett from the Blueberry Team bring you weekly insights, advice, and insider tips and tricks to help you start, grow and thrive through podcasting. All with the support of your team here at Blueberry Podcasting. Welcome. Let's dive in. I'm Mackenzie Bennett, marketing specialist here at Blueberry. And I'm Mike Dell, VP of Customer Relations here at Blueberry. This week we're gonna talk about networks. Should you start one, should you join one?

0:44 And we'll go over some of the pros and cons of running or being part of a network. So I think we should start off with one of the ways that you can be part of a network, whether it's running it or joining one. And we work with customers every day and podcasters that are on both sides of this, uh, situation. So how, what is your experience with this helping customers, Mike? Well. Some of the time with networks, and we'll go into some pros and cons of course, but some of the time with networks is, you gotta be really clear how the network is going to be organized.

1:27 I'm part of the tech podcast network with one of my podcasts, and that's a very loose formation of a network. It's basically an affiliate sort of agreement that we're, we're gonna be affiliated with the network, but we're not run by the network and we're not owned by a network. And, uh, and all that. That's, that's one way. There's other ways where it's a little more formal. You know, someone approaches you and says, Hey, we'd like your show to be part of our network, and as part of that we wanna share revenue with you. We want to, you know, we wanna host your show on our platform or a platform of our choice. And, you know, and then there's everything in between.

2:11 It could just be an agreement between podcasters. Sometimes a network is a good idea and sometimes it's a bad idea. , you know, that it all depends and, you know, if you're thinking about starting a network, you gotta think about how you're gonna administer that network. And we'll get into the weeds a little bit here, but, you know, there are some benefits and there's some negatives and there's a lot of things you gotta look out for. Absolutely. That's. The the biggest thing, you know, you know, some of the benefits, uh, you know, you can go into that Mackenzie. Yeah, let's get into that. So one of the benefits is that with any podcast network, people understand that the shows are associated together.

2:57 That they're all coming from the same, you know, association, whatever you wanna call it. Whether it's something like the Conan network where he's like, okay, I wanna actually start like a media company for this. And it's really only like his show or if it's a collection. Um, but there's just a larger audience pool. That's the biggest one. Certain shows are gonna have a bigger poll than others, but more likely than not, one of the reasons that you're doing the network is because there's gonna be crossover listeners there. If you're listening to one show, you're probably gonna listen to another associated to that network. Yep. That's part of it. And then, you know, of course there's cross promotion. You know, one of the, the rules of, of the network that I'm on is that at some point in your show you say, we're affiliated with the tech podcast network and, you know, give the network address or at least have a, a a link on your site about it.

3:52 That's not strictly enforced, but you know, it's a good idea. And the benefit of that is, you know, other shows on the network may talk about your show or may promote your show, maybe run promos. There's, there's lots of collaborations that can happen when you're associated with a network. Oftentimes whenever a new show is coming out, they'll give you a, a preview play a trailer, or even sometimes they'll do like the first pilot episode, they'll just, they'll launch that episode on a existing r s s feed for a show and they'll be like, this is just a bonus episode of if you're interested in this. Like, here it is, it's going to be its own show, but here's a great first introduction to it.

4:44 Yeah. W Wondery and Pushkin or, or Famous for that, when they come out with a new show, they'll, they'll put the pilot episode or a sample episode up on every other feed on the network. It's a, it's a reliable way to do it. Yeah. That's. Cross promotion. Now, you know, a smallie network might not benefit as much from that as it would is if the, the host of those shows talk about the show or maybe have the hosts of the new show on the show. You know, , there's, there's ways to do this that, uh, that make sense. You just. Gotta get creative. Yeah. And, and of course a lot of, a lot of times, uh, group of shows will get together so they have more advertising opportunities because instead of your, instead of buying ad on one show, you buy an ad for the entire network, which is obviously going to be more people or should be if it's working right. And that's another way, uh, another benefit of possibly being on a network.

5:50 I'd say that's probably one of the most popular reasons that people join the network in the first place. Yeah. And it's also a way for like-minded podcasters to collab, you know, not collaborate, but, you know, just talk amongst each other. It's, you know, I, I know back in the Day, tech podcast was really famous about that, you know, someone would have a subject on their show and then another show on the network would take that same subject and elaborate on it or maybe disagree with it. And, and it was kind of fun listening to, you know, co two or three shows that were all reacting to the other shows. Mm-hmm. on the network and, and you know, just depends on what your subject matter is. You know, I've seen networks where we're, we're a network and then, you know, and there's a show about, uh, knitting and there's a show about politics and there's a show about the other thing, and they just didn't fit well together.

6:46 So I think in my personal opinion is you want to keep it kind of in a genre of some sort. Mm-hmm. , You know, like you can't be nbc Well, you could, but, uh, you know, B NBC Network, they have shows about, you know, they have news, they have dramas and comedies and, you know, whatever, you know, documentaries, you know, they, they have the whole gamut of stuff on their network. So that's not similar. But if you're like, on discovery, well, at least Discovery the way it used to be, I don't know how it is now, but on Discovery or History Channel, they always had stuff roughly in that genre.

7:26 And now everybody seems to be doing reality. But, uh, it's a whole nother . You could have a network about reality show . Yes. That's the thing. You can do a network about whatever, but it's, it's gonna be more successful in our experience if it's all related. Yeah, for sure. Uh, cuz you know, I, I'm not gonna care if I'm interested in, you know, a particular political show. I'm not gonna care that they have a show about knitting. Just not, you know, and so the benefits of the cross promotions and collaborations and all that stuff, or even the larger audience isn't really gonna happen that way in that type of network. But, you know, but there's a hundred different ways to organize it. You know, like I said, we gotta have a loose affiliation. You can have a, uh, just a, a basic landing page that has all the shows on the network on it, kinda like a directory, you know, tech podcast is kind of that way right now.

8:25 It's, uh, it's, it's just a, a directory of tech related podcasts. Now. We have a really cool network tool within our Power Press plugin that allows you to set up a network really, really easy on your own website. And it is a great way to kind of have the control over what the brand looks like from the outside, but the functionality, you know, the back end of it, uh, it's very open. Like it can have different, anyone can be on a different hosting company. These are all the things that you need to think of, um, for logistics that we'll get into, uh, in a little bit. But it, there's no one way to do it.

9:08 Right. Right. You know, and that tool in Power Press is basically to make a landing page for the network that showcases all of the shows on that network. And as Mackenzie said, it's really cool in the fact that not everybody has to be hosted with blueberry or, you know. It allows for anyone to be involved. It's great. Yeah. So that's really good for, you know, a loose collaboration or, you know, or just making sort of a directory of that genre of shows. Now, I would say, and I'm sure our, uh, legal counsel would also say that it's probably not a good idea to add shows that don't belong to you or have you have their permission.

9:52 You know, you don't want to add just any random show to your network landing page. You, you wanna make sure you have their permission to, to have those on there. Yeah. That's a whole other situation of assuming a show will want to work with you and not actually collaborating with the host or the people involved with the podcast. That's, um, I feel like that's pirating in a sense. It's rude anyway. You know it. Yeah. It's rude. Yeah, it's a cool tool. Uh, you know, check it out if you're, uh, hosting with us, you have to be on the pro level at this point to use the network function, but it's, uh, it's kind of cool. Uh, check out again, tech podcast, keep promoting tech podcasts. I shouldn't do that, but, uh, tech podcast.com has that network tool running and that's what causes that directory to be there.

10:49 But there's other networking models. Uh, we work with a, a network outta New Jersey that, uh, basically this network hosts the show, uh, on whatever platform that they use. And, you know, you're pretty much, you sign a thing saying you're gonna do, you know, an episode a week and blah, blah, blah, you know, and they share revenue from their advertising and that's the model. Or there's also pay to play, which, you know, where if you start the network, they pay you to be on the network and you don't, you know, they do their own advertising or whatever.

11:31 And you could structure that any which way you want to for sure. But, uh, you know, you gotta be a little careful if you're joining a network that you definitely understand what the rules are. There's quite a bit of responsibility on both ends of joining a network or, you know, starting the network. Right. You know, and there's nothing, nothing wrong with starting a network. And there's nothing wrong with any way that you wanna set it up. And there's nothing wrong with joining one as long as you, you understand what the rules are, what, you know, some of the negatives is you get a little less creative control, you know, depending on the rules of the network. Like, uh, the one I'm involved in, uh, they don't want, uh, cursing on the network. Now, in podcasting you can curse all you want, but with this particular network, one of the rules is they wanna be family friendly, which, you know, it's, I guess it's reasonable. And if you know that going in, then you know, go for it. But if that's not something you can live with, that might be a, a deal breaker.

12:37 You know, I kind of view it as similar to living in a neighborhood with an HOA and , you're exactly, you're, you're going in with a certain set of expectations that you have to uphold and work around and, you know, still create a product that you're happy and proud of. And, and that could be something that is, you know, you can make your podcast network like legal aspects and guidelines as strict as you want them to be, um, or as loose as you want them to be. Right. For sure. And one of the other negatives is profit sharing. And it may be not a negative, cuz you may get more that way.

13:20 Yeah. That, that one, um, can really, is really dependent on how things are structured between the different shows. Um, whether it's, you know, based on downloads or ad deals or some type of, you know, signing bonus, that type of thing. It really just depends. But in general, there will be some type of profit sharing. Right. And then of course, you gotta think about intellectual property and there's a lot of legal aspects, which we won't dig into too deeply here, but make sure that you check out what is owned by the network, what is owned by you, you know, because if you're creating your own podcast, do you own that podcast or when you join the network, does it become the property of that network? You know, we've had some famous examples in the past where somebody joined a network and then later wanted to leave. Well, they could leave, but they didn't get their show name, they didn't get their show.

14:20 Unfortunately. I feel like I've seen quite a few shows from some, some, you know, big level music platforms that we are all familiar with that the podcast ends up leaving hosts are fired or moved to something else. And this, that has been working on this show this entire time is no longer associated to it whatsoever. And they really have no legal claim to it. And that's just really unfortunate. Right. So, you know, you just gotta be careful, especially if you're joining a network that already exists mm-hmm. , you know, look, look, look back at their track record and see, you know, are they decent when the breakup happens?

15:03 Make sure you have that written down. That's the thing too, is you know, what happens if the host wants to leave? What happens if the network wants you to leave? Always have an exit strategy. Yeah. Or at least have it written down so you know what's gonna happen so you don't have to fight over it later. Mm-hmm. , and that's one of the other negatives that aren't listed here in our, our little pre-show notes, but one of the other negative aspects is personality conflicts. I mean, it's just because you're, you know, you're podcasting in the same genre as the rest of the network doesn't mean that that a you, you all agree on everything and b, there there may be some personality conflict, you might just can't stand this other person , you know, that happens.

15:51 Or the people running the network. I mean, for example, like we do a podcast about podcasting, but there are so many other people that do that as well. But we're not gonna necessarily work with them because, you know Yeah. We have our own experience to share. We're not trying to share someone else's with that. Yeah. You know, and then we have nothing against the other shows that are podcasting about podcasts. In fact, I listen to most of them and I always learn something and sometimes I'll, I'll contribute, you know, a comment or something and we get comments from other podcasters that podcast about podcasts. Gosh, that's a lot of words. You know, so you're not necessarily in competition. That's the thing.

16:36 And again, a network is a way to kind of cement that deal if, you know, if you don't wanna be in competition, we know that, you know, if you're listening to this show about podcasting, either you're a, a blueberry customer or user and or you may, uh, just be listening to all sorts of podcasts about podcasting. You know, and you, you pick that. So we're not competing, we're not, you know, every day at 11 o'clock is the, is this show? No, it's, uh, it comes out on Thursdays and you listen to it when you want to. And you know, a person that's interested in podcasting may listen to 10, 12 different shows. That's normal. And if, like, say you're doing a, a network about knitting, well you get five or six knitting shows and chances are somebody might listen to all of them on the network, which is kind of cool. But again, just be careful.

17:33 Yeah. I mean it's, it's definitely that world idea of teaming up with your enemies, you know, instead of trying to front compete just Yeah. . Yeah. Work with your frenemies. Nothing wrong with that. That, and of course, you know, we have some must dos, we kind of covered some of those already, but carefully review any contracts, and make sure you have a contract. Don't just come and oh yeah, I'll join and then not have anything written down because. , you know, even you can make 'em as loose as you want, but we would highly, highly recommend that you have something legally written down. Um, we've had people come to us over the years where there is a host breakup happening and one of them contacts us and they're like, I can't get into the account, can you help me? And we're like, I'm very sorry, but based on, you know, how this account has been set up, we can't just hand it over to you no matter how much you beg and plead that type of stuff.

18:37 Had a couple of 'em go to court and, you know, once we got the court order, then okay, here we'll give it to whoever I'm on the court case. But man, you don't wanna pay lawyers to do that. No. And you, you don't wanna pay lawyers to do that. You don't wanna deal with the emotional aspects of that. It's cut and dry, keeps it clean. Right, right. And then you gotta also, you know, decide who's paying the hosting. You know, who's paying the other expenses that the network, uh, generates, you know, like if you start the network, well you figure that out. But if you're joining a network, also figure that out. , you know, you you, you wanna know who's responsible for what. Because it can go on so many different ways.

19:18 Like you can all be on one website together and split the fees of the website maintenance and all that comes with that. Or you can give them a portion of your profit and not be in charge of anything and you know, just pay your way through. And with the convenience of that, it's, there's a lot of different ways. Right. And uh, of course if there's any equipment and software involved that is owned by the network or are you gonna do that? You know, everybody's independent for the recording stuff and you know, you just have to worry about the hosting fees. But, you know, we had a, a big network slash studio kind of go out of business because the, uh, guy running it kicked the bucket .

20:08 And that was a big mess because, you know, he owned all of the studio equipment that all the podcasters would use. You know, they had a a, a physical location and a lot of these podcasts didn't survive the the event because that studio was no longer available and they didn't have any of their own stuff. So the whole thing sort of fell apart. So make sure that's spelled out who owns the equipment, who owns, you know, all of this stuff. You just really gotta be careful with that. Yeah, same. It's the same idea with, um, production. You know, the end result. Are you guys gonna use a company like pro production who's they're all gonna edit the shows or are you gonna edit your own?

20:55 Are you gonna use your own microphone that you know is this one brand but they actually want you to use something different. That's all just stuff to consider. But something else that we want you to consider is the release schedules, especially the bigger the network, you can kind of be stepping on people's toes there where you know, someone's like, okay, well we have Wednesday at this time and we have Monday morning at this time and it's, you might have to move it around a bit. You know, it just depends on do you wanna make that part of what you're doing and like part of your marketing strategy or are you all just kind of marketing on your own? Are you working together on that?

21:35 These are all things that you should probably figure out. Right. Before you run into problems . Yeah, for sure. Uh, it's not bad, but you know, like say if Wondery, I just pick on them for right now, say if Wondery every Monday they drop all their shows, well that may not necessarily be the best for gaining new audience cuz you know, if I've got 27 new shows that I'm subscribed to, I'll drop on Monday. You know, which ones am I gonna listen to and which ones am I gonna ignore that week? And you know, for a, and this, this is more of a general podcasting thing, you know, the day that you release shouldn't matter a lot except for you wanna try to be consistent. And also if you join a network, you may be expected that every Saturday you have a show and make sure that uh, you know, if you're either running a network or you are part of a network, that you understand that now you've made a commitment to a group or the network that you're gonna have x number of episodes per month and you're gonna have them all, you know, come out on Saturdays or Tuesdays or whatever day you're assigned or pick.

22:46 Yeah. That can be a very big change for some people. And you know, and again, commitment too because you know, I, I remember one, uh, one of the guys that was on Spotify is an exclusive, when he signed his contract, he didn't realize they didn't allow for any vacations. . That is difficult. That's extremely difficult. He spent two years doing a, a daily show Monday through Friday and they were topical shows so he couldn't pre-record really. And uh, he, you know, he was stuck working five days a week for the entire two years without a break. He was well compensated, I have to say. But, uh, , you know, I might take that deal but, uh, , but you know, you make sure that's spelled out for sure. You know, cuz Yes.

23:36 Never know. Said if you're gonna start running a network, it, it's similar to herding cats. That's the old adage. You know, everybody's got their, their own agendas. Everybody's got their reliability factor, you know, it's, or or just like running a company. Cuz that in a sense it is. I definitely view it as that. If you're gonna do it, take it seriously, you know, cross your ts, dot your I and make sure that everything is spelled out. However, you know, however you want it, but make sure it's spelled out. If it's not, then, you know, then you get these fights and there's nothing worse than a a feud amongst podcasters on a network. Like I said, we've seen it so many times, you know, so just make sure you get it all spelled out and it may not be right for you if you're a, a, a very, uh, independent person and you wanna control everything, well you just do that.

24:41 Oh, during the network, you know, and, and in my experience, and this is just, you know, from talking to many, many, many customers and, and, and people in the podcasting world, the promises that are given you from a network are rarely exactly what happens. Could be better, could be worse, but it's not, they can't guarantee the result. They just can't. There's no way to guarantee success. And there is a boatload of responsibility that comes with, with running a podcast network. And some people are, they thrive at it and some people know it's not for them.

25:21 There's nothing wrong with that. Um, we just are recommending that you look at the pros and cons, you know, these, these benefits that we've, that we've given you and just the insight that we've had. Mike, you've, you know, you've been part of one for many years now and we've just been involved with customers doing this for a long, long time. So make sure you have all your considerations. Yep, for sure. And, and you know, and I've known lots of network people, you know, people that start networks and they run them for a few years and then they decide they don't wanna run 'em anymore and, and they go away. Mm-hmm. and not necessarily a bad thing. It's, you know, everything has its time.

26:02 We love seeing a network thrive. Oh for sure. Think about what happens if one of the shows goes viral, for lack of a better term. You know, if you get a show that is just a super mega hit, what is that gonna do to the rest of the shows on the network? You know, it can also go viral for bad reasons. , that's true too. you know, one example, one of the networks I was dealing with, one of the shows had probably 30 times the audience as any of the other shows on the network. And of course that person was, felt that they were being held back mm-hmm by the network because you know, they didn't have full control anymore and they didn't have a very robust contract figuring, you know, figuring out what to do. If that happens, that's something you may want to think about is what happens if a show gets really big. Cuz that could happen, you know, in fact that's kinda what you're going for, but what happens to the rest of the shows on the network?

27:08 Cuz that person that has this huge audience should be paid more. They're the ones bringing the most in and so they should get the most out, or at least that's how I would set it up if I was to do it. But I'm not gonna run a network anytime soon. How about you Mackenzie? No, I don't think so. . It's a lot of work. It's a lot of messing around and it could be worth it. It really could, but I don't wanna get into a business anytime soon. So All right, well I think we got this, uh, horse beaten pretty well, so, uh, do you have any final, uh, comments?

27:49 No, just, uh, you know, do your research and look up some of your favorite networks of your own and try to get it a good idea of how those function. And of course if you guys have any questions about how we can help with creating one or, you know, using our tool to create a network, uh, just let us know. All right, well, we'll uh, catch you next week with another episode. Thanks for joining us. Come back next week and in the meantime, head to podcast insider.com. For more information, just subscribe, share, and read our show notes. Check out the latest suite of services and learn how blueberry can help you leverage your podcast. Visit blueberry.com.

28:31 That's blueberry without the ease because we can't afford the ease.