New Law Order
New Law Order is a podcast about the business of Big Law and the technologies remaking it. Hosts Joel Cohen (founder of TalksOnLaw) and Professor John Morley (Yale Law School) interview the lawyers, founders, academics, and judges quietly, and not so quietly, rewiring the legal industry.
Each episo...
Recent Episodes
12
Sept. 9, 2026
David Wilkins (Harvard Law): Bias Without Bigotry
Big Law has spent decades and a fortune on diversity, and the numbers barely moved at the partnership level. The usual explanation is that somewhere in the building (or somewhere in your head) there's racism and misogyny. David Wilkins, Harvard Law professor and possibly the most important scholar on the legal profession, has a less satisfying answer: you don't need bigots to get this result. You just need busy partners. In this conversation, Wilkins joins Joel and John to explain how a firm fu
11
May 26, 2026
CJ Mahoney (Meta): Inside Counsel at Scale
In this episode of New Law Order, Joel Cohen and Yale Law Professor John Morley speak with CJ Mahoney, Chief Legal Officer of Meta, about one of the hardest legal questions facing modern technology companies: when a product becomes deeply woven into daily life, how should the law think about harm, responsibility, and regulation? Drawing on a career that has taken him from Williams & Connolly to the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative, Microsoft, and now Meta, Mahoney offers an unusually cand
10
May 5, 2026
Richard Sander (UCLA Law): A Mismatch Critique of Affirmative Action
Richard Sander, UCLA law professor and economist, has spent decades advancing one of the most controversial arguments in legal education: that large racial preferences in law school admissions may frequently harm the students they are intended to help. In this episode of New Law Order, Joel Cohen and Yale Law Professor John Morley speak with Sander about affirmative action, the Supreme Court’s decision in Students for Fair Admissions, and what new data may reveal about the future of law school a
9
April 7, 2026
Mike Gerstenzang (Cleary Gottlieb): AI from the Inside
Michael A. Gerstenzang, the longtime managing partner and now senior partner of Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, explains how he positioned one of the world's most established law firms to lead in AI adoption — not by outsourcing innovation, but by building it from the inside. The conversation traces a series of structural bets that began before generative AI entered the mainstream, starting with ClearyX, a wholly owned technology subsidiary launched in 2021 to reinvent M&A due diligence. Gerst
8
March 26, 2026
Judge Paul Grimm: Deep Fakes in the Courtroom
This week, we’re sharing a timely episode from a related TalksOnLaw podcast, AI Lawyer. In this episode, host Joel Cohen is joined by Judge Paul Grimm for a conversation about one of the most unsettling problems facing the legal system: what happens when audio, video, and other forms of evidence can be generated, manipulated, or challenged by artificial intelligence? Judge Grimm explains how AI is already affecting the justice system long before trial, from predictive policing and facial recogn
7
March 10, 2026
Jason Boehmig (Ironclad): The Rise of the Legal Technologist
Artificial intelligence is beginning to change not just how lawyers work, but what parts of the job remain distinctly human. In this episode of New Law Order, we speak with Jason Boehmig, founder and CEO of Ironclad, about how AI and legal technology are reshaping the structure of the legal profession. Boehmig explains to hosts Joel and John that software is increasingly taking over the mechanical work of law—document manipulation, contract routing, approvals, and data extraction—freeing lawyer