Interview with Nathan Oxenfeld Part 2

I had the pleasure of sitting down with Nathan Oxenfeld again. He is a Natural Vision Teacher and founder of Integral Eye Sight Improvement.  He teaches people natural alternatives to glasses, contacts, and surgeries and how many common vision problems can be prevented and decreased with simple and natural practices that retrain the eyes and mind to function more optimally.  Nathan combines the Bates Method, Yoga, Meditation, Breath Work, Emotional Work, Diet & Nutrition, and other vision training techniques to explore a more holistic approach to eye health.  He teaches classes and also is very active on social media.  He completed a documentary in 2020 on Natural Vision Improvement. Enjoy the show. If you want more, sign up for my newsletter at: www.drsamberne.com.

Nathan Oxenfeld: Website | Instagram | Vision 2020 Movie

If you missed it, go back and listen to our first conversation here.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, cataract, eyes, works, vision, floaters, prescription, eyedrops, question, reduce, surgery, book, bates, optometrist, glasses, light, create, msm, cataract surgery, sam

Hello, everyone. It’s Dr. Sam, I’d like to welcome you to my EyeClarity podcast. This is a show that offers cutting-edge information on how to improve your vision and overall wellness through holistic methods. I so appreciate you spending part of your day with me. If you have questions, you can send them to hello@drsamberene.com. Now to the latest EyeClarity episode.

Hey folks, it’s Dr. Sam and I want to welcome you to another EyeClarity podcast. So today I had the pleasure of speaking with Nathan Oxenfeld. He is a vision educator, Bates, teacher, and so much more. And I was able to go on his show and talked about my book, my new book coming out and some other great topics. So enjoy the show.

Hello, this is Nathan Oxenfeld. And today I’m joined by guest who is an optometrist, and also embraces holistic approaches to eye care. And I had the pleasure of being interviewed on his podcast not too long ago called the EyeClarity podcast. And I really just enjoy following him on Instagram and seeing the bite sized clips and comedies with this community. So just really excited to share him with my community today as well and talk about maybe some things from his upcoming release of his new book coming out, as well. So thank you so much for being here. Welcome to Dr. Sam Berne.

Good afternoon. Good morning, Nathan. It’s great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Absolutely. And maybe before we jump into any particular topics that you cover in your new book, do you want to take some time to introduce yourself and share a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Sure, so I am a licensed optometrist, or in my degree from the Pennsylvania College of Optometry in 1984, long time ago, and it was a very medically oriented education. And that was very interested in vision therapy. Actually, the third year of my of my optometry school, I got to do an externship with a behavioral optometrists Bob Santa down in San Diego. And it was amazing to see 60 people a week going through vision therapy, and the changes that they made in their life. So it inspired me to say that’s what I want to do. And so once I graduated, I went to the gazelle Institute in New Haven, Connecticut, and studied Child Development for a year and opened a practice in Philadelphia, got very busy and sold that and moved out to Santa Fe, New Mexico, in the early 1990s. And why Santa Fe? Well, one of the other internships I did was at the Indian Hospital in Santa Fe. And so I knew that Santa Fe was a alternative community that would probably accept a more holistic approach to eye care. And I was right. So I moved here in the early 90s, and opened an office and got busy and studied a lot of different alternative things I would say, my philosophy is I look at the whole person, not just the eyes, you know, one of the one of the things is instead of looking at the numbers, you look at the person behind the numbers, and being more in a humanistic approach, both professionally and personally. Fast forward today. And, you know, I’m still very passionate about the work and helping people and, you know, I’m just into a more integrative natural approach to health, and that people are making their own choices and what they want to do with their with their eyes.

Yeah, that sounds empowering to, you know, be a facilitator, someone to support all along their journey, instead of just making all the decisions for them and telling them what’s right and what to do. It sounds really nice. Yeah, yeah, that’s really cool. I’ve, I’m originally from Philadelphia area. So that’s cool that you, you started off there as well, before going out to New Mexico.

Yeah, Philadelphia was pretty conservative. I remember, I affiliated with an older behavioral optometrist, and I could not get any patience for like three months. I mean, I was beating the streets. And this was before social media. Finally, I remember I was moonlighting in West Philly at a eye clinic, and he called me and said, you got your first patient. I was like, Well, this is this is monumental. And what I actually did was on city line avenue in Philly, there were these hospitals and I went to a few of them. And I talked to the design buttress. And I said, I’ve got this vision rehabilitation. And type perspective, can I work with your TBI people, and he said, Sure, I never heard of this. And all these people had double vision and balance issues, they were kind of written off by the, you know, traditional eye care. So of course, you know, doing some tonics and vestibular stuff, and you know, prisons and all the things, they got better. And then I started working with special needs kids. And so those two communities created a reputation for me that then I started to build my practice indirectly, it was a great lesson, because in the end, before I sold, my part of the practice, I built up a very busy vision therapy practice, in a very allopathic section of the main line in Philadelphia is very challenging. But, you know, that proved to me that you could do this work anywhere, and, you know, New Mexico was, was easier, because people were, the community was so much more open to it, you know, in Philadelphia, it’s more conventional. And I remember even the yoga and meditation that were in the early phases, you know, back in the late 1980s course, now, you know, yoga is great all over the world. So anyway, Philly was a great learning place for me. And when I really refined my chops of being able to communicate and talk to people, and, you know, was very grateful to my partner, Dr. Adelman, Dr. Ellis Adam, and he passed away. But I was like an apprentice with him for five years. And so I this was back in the 80s. And I remember I met Jacob Lieberman, and got involved in some tonics and really grateful to meet Jacob. And then I got Ellis involved in synth tonics. And he actually got on the board, and he was even more excited about it. So we did, we did a lot of great things, you know, very innovative way ahead of the curve and Philly, and I was really glad to be there. And I learned a lot and it’s kind of my base for you know, what I do now what I draw on with a lot of my content that I put out and people that I that I help. Yeah.

Yeah, I’m glad you brought up the synth tommix. Because I was going to ask if that was something that you encountered in optometry school, or when you were starting to look more into vision therapy, but sounds like that kind of came in a little bit later.

Yeah, so in optometry school, the pediatric head was a guy named Michel Shaiman. And he had his other associate Mike Galloway. And they were very conventional. But, you know, I learned a lot about the accommodative convergence model of vision therapy, but we didn’t really go into light. It was when I got out of school. And I think, again, I was traveling, I met Jacob and we were traveling out in California together and he was speaking at different places. I remember we ended up at Esalen. And he was speaking there. And so he was really my introduction to light and color. And then I started to go to the meetings and met Ray Gottlieb and Larry Wallace. And some of my contemporaries Mark Grossman’s another person and so we, we kind of, you know, really took this syntonic model, and I loved it, you know, it was just a great way to, as you know, and, of course, we’ve got our friend and colleague, Gabrielle, who’s in Austria, and she actually spoke at my health summit, and she, what she’s doing with color, and light is just incredible. So a lot of people do in light and color. I’ve seen some of your content on it. And I’m really glad that, you know, people are embracing the therapeutic value of light and color, because it’s pretty, pretty potent stuff. And it’s so simple.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it’s for those who maybe they may not be as familiar with what sin tonics is or syntonic. Optometry? Do you want to give a quick little crash course or a descriptor of what that is what sin tonics means.

So synth tonics comes from the word symphony, and it’s spelled sy N to N Y, and it brings bring back into balance. And Harry what Riley Spitler was one of the founders of syntonic optometry back in the 1930s. And basically, it’s using different looking at different frequencies of light through the eyes. And by doing that it stimulates the photoreceptors in the retina. And so it can open up your peripheral vision. But it also has some secondary effects because they’re non visual pathways in the eyes, where that energy that color and light can impact the endocrine system, the nervous system, our emotions are psychological. Those of you that believe in the chakras, it can, you know, alter those. So it’s, it’s a modality that that you can use to help people improve their vision. And beyond. I mean, there’s so many other benefits, the research coming out on what what light and color can do for our pH levels are, you know, are inflammation or pain. Now, red light therapy is one of the things that I’m looking at as it affects the mitochondria in the retina. And some new studies are showing that, you know, a dose of three to four minutes of looking at red light in the morning might actually improve your vision. This is coming from, you know, pretty mainstream science. So anyway, the College of syntonic optometry, if those of you that want to learn more about it, you could see so you could go there, find a practitioner in your area, and, or, you know, keep following us and Nathan puts out a lot of great info on light. And so yeah, so that’s, that’s basically

their website. Isn’t that CSO? vision.org?

Yes, that’s right.

If people want to check it out, yeah,

it’s a great resource. And, you know, the books light medicine, the future by Jacob Take off your glasses and see by Jacob really good books. Again, you know, there’s more and more being written about color and light these days. And it’s, it’s, it’s the new medicine. And so I’m, I’m happy to be part of the group.

Absolutely, yeah. And just to reiterate, I just love how simple it is, by taking in certain colors, looking at them through the eyes can have these systemic effects elsewhere in the whole system. So pretty, pretty amazing stuff. And is that a topic that you incorporate or touch on in your new book, you just brought up Jacob Lieberman’s books, but I wanted to bring our attention back to you. Okay. Well, it’s called Vital vital vision, right?

Yep, vital vision. And it’s coming out February 2023. So in this new book, actually, the way I wrote this book is interesting, because I’ve written five other books. But in this book, what we did was, we did some research on what were the most popular topics on social media. And I started off on Facebook, and I started to do Facebook Live. And, you know, I’ve built up a nice following there. And actually, Facebook went away, and now it’s coming back. So it’s interesting how it goes full circle, as I’m putting more attention back on Facebook. But anyway, we did research on all the platforms. And you know, the number one question that I got was about floaters. And the second most important question, or most popular question, was, what do I do with my cataracts? And the third question was on myopia and then astigmatism was like forth. And then it went from there. A lot of questions about pinhole glasses, a lot of questions about diet, nutrition, so I put in color and light in those different topics. You know, it’s so much part of my fabric that, you know, I can’t not not talk about it. My first book, creating your personal vision, I actually wrote two chapters on light and color. And my book I sense at play in the field of healing. I actually bring in another energy measurement called the GDB camera. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of this. This was. This is a camera that was invented by a guy named Constantine cord cough, who’s professor of energy medicine, and he invented this Kirlian type camera. I bought it. And I started to do research with energy fields and chakras, as it related to syntonic And when I was teaching at the Esalen Institute, I had a whole group of students that we put through different color and light therapy, protocols. And then we’d measure people using their energy fields and chakras. So people like Joe Dispenza, and Bruce Lipton and Gregg Braden, you know, those people are really cutting edge and health and the paradigm around energy medicine. So to be able to see the change in the field, or the chakras, or the acupuncture meridians, through color, and light, is pretty profound. And in my book, I sense I talked about the research, this book is more of this new book is more about what do people want to what are their questions? And so, so I just, we took the transcripts, and then I rewrote it, put it together, had many people read the book, to to help me, you know, put it together. So it’s, it’s kind of a compilation of what do people want to hear? You know, what are they most interested in? And it’s interesting that floaters was number one, at least in my community, what is it in your community? Do you know what what are? What are the big questions people are asking you? Because it’s probably different. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, there’s some similarities and some differences. Because yeah, I do see a lot of floaters. questions come up, especially recently. It seems like more more recently compared to in the past. But probably the the most common question I get more so than like, what particular vision condition is more about the time, a lot of people just seem to want to know exactly how long it’s going to take or what and what is involved in the process, which I can resonate with, because I know that I was wondering that myself when I was first looking at this process for my eyes. But yeah, I would say floaters. And cataracts are two really common ones. I think the other big common one I get is people who have gotten a laser eye surgery, and then lost some of the benefits or the results from that. And then they’re kind of in a pickle, because they might, you know, could consider doing another surgery or they want to maybe explore a more natural option. So that’s another one that I see a lot in like my YouTube comments and things like that. But it’s such a good idea to see what people are talking about, you know, what people want to learn more about and just given that answer the question that we’re actually putting in,

yeah, you know, I’m trying to create value for my community, instead of just talking about myself. You know, that’s not gonna go anywhere. But LASIK surgery is interesting. You know, you bring that up, because I did a post on tick tock about six months ago, and it was on LASIK, and how do what do I think of LASIK? And I came out against it. And it went viral the whole I mean, it just blew up. And almost all of the comments were against what I was saying, oh, LASIK is worked great. I’m so happy, blah, blah, blah, where’s the science? And there was an article that was written in The New York Times. I don’t know if you know this in 2018. They came out against LASIK surgery and Morris Waxler. Have you ever heard of him, he used to work for the FDA. And he was one of the people who approved LASIK surgery, you know, this, maybe your community doesn’t. So I share that and that shut people up. They’re like, Oh, my goodness. And it’s not that I’m against LASIK surgery, I think you just need to be really informed about what are the side effects and because, you know, if you’re high Myo, the only way you’re gonna get there is through lasik surgery. I mean, at least in my process, I cannot help a person who’s you know, over minus four minus five, how much myopia can they reduce? So in that case, all right, you know, that that’ll get you there. And then you can do your method or my method as a way to integrate what the eyeball prescription has become. But, you know, it’s definitely, you know, tricky waters compared to cataract surgery, which is a really safe surgery, and that one works out really well. You know, the other question I get a lot is mono vision, you know, where you’re correcting one eye for distance, one eye for reading. And that seems very disastrous for many people, you know, and they, and then they’re trying to wear progressive lenses and, you know, gets into all those, those areas. And this is where you and I understand what vision really is. And there’s so much of the brain in the body involved, and there are ways you can improve it. So, you know, we can offer that perspective that I think in the traditional mainstream eyecare. They basically just say, Wow, this is the best we can do. And, you know, you’ll get used to it, something like that.

Yeah, and I know, I was not aware of what mono vision was before I started learning more about vision. And I was yeah, pretty taken aback by this possibility that we can essentially you get one eye to focus near. And then the other for focusing far in on the surface. It sounds like oh, that’s a good idea. But it when you really think about what that does to the, to the brain and the visual system and how, I mean, it’s amazing that we can adapt to that, but kind of like you just hint to that. It’s like what what do I actually want to get used to what do I want my brain to adapt to? So yeah. Coming coming back to the floaters. Topic, though, since that is a popular topic. Did you want was there anything in particular that you wanted to share around that topic?

Well, a few general principles that patience is a really important component if you want to embark on reducing your floaters. And you may need to try some different things, you know, not, there isn’t one cookbook approach for everybody. And you know, people get frustrated pretty quickly if, you know, this doesn’t work or that doesn’t work. But usually, floaters you know, it’s been cooking in your eye for a while. It isn’t something that just showed up. It’s the vitreous gel, in some way has lost its integrity, whether it’s too watery, whether it’s dried out and it’s shrinking. There’s a collagen issue, there’s an inflammation issue. So take your pick, is it dental care, is it head trauma? Is it liver issues? Is it just dehydration and you know, oxidative stress? There’s so many factors involved. So you know, I think about collagen creation, hydration, cream, giving more nutrients to the eyes, protecting your eyes, from you know, the drying out agents like blue light, looking at your systemic and metabolic health as well. And it’s a puzzle, you know, you’re in a you’re in a detective type uncovering, you know, I wish you know, these eyedrops MSM drops. And if you look at my patient reviews, some people have reduced it, but that’s, you know, that’s not the magic bullet. It doesn’t work for a lot of people. So I’m very conservative about even saying, okay, use these eyedrops, and they’re gonna get rid of floaters. The same thing is with laser surgery, I have had a number of people who’ve had the laser surgery for floaters, and it’s created more problems, more cloudiness, more inflammation, on and on. So I think if you’ve got floaters, I think to start looking at us systemically and metabolically, maybe adding you know agents to the eyes that are more natural natural eyedrops moisturizing your diet as part of it. And let’s see, you know, what you can, you know, what you can do with it. So, that’s kind of how I approach it. And I’m not out to make any guarantees or promises, that if you do this, it’s going to fix that. That’s just not the way I roll. But, you know, that’s, yeah, that’s how it is. I mean, do you have anything to add to that? I can. Go ahead.

Yeah, absolutely. But first, I wanted to mention that I I’ve taken MSM in the past, like orally for I think it was just for like joint health or my knees or something like that. But you’re but you blended it into, I’ve dropped where it just goes right into the into the eye tissue.

Yeah, it’s a software molecule. It’s organic, and you know, it’s just a liquid solution, and they’re different percentages. And sulfur is the third leading trace mineral found in the body software’s like sticky flypaper. So, the toxins will stick to the sulfur and then it can be flushed out. So as a detoxifying agent, one needs to be careful if your detox pathways are not working very well, and you start using MSM eyedrops, it could create a little bit of irritation, blurriness, redness. Well, that’s because your detoxification pathways are overwhelmed. So you have to you Use less of it or a lesser concentration. And then I get the question. Well, I’m allergic to sulfur. And there’s a confusion there between sulfur and sulfur drugs or sulfites. So I have to make that distinction as well. And then for for many people, the MSM eyedrops does help them, it does create more moisture and lubrication. And it’s, it’s a therapeutically driven eyedrop that seems to support some people. So, you know, I used it in my office for many, many years. And then, in 2016, when I opened my ecommerce store, I said, alright, I’ll put it up and see how it goes. And it really took off it was, and I’ve missed, so you can spray it on the eyelids as well. But I want to also say, it’s not the cat’s meow, it’s not the magic bullet, and people write me and say, Can I use MSM for reversing cataracts? Well, no, that’s not what that’s going to do for you. You have to do some other things, like, reduce your sugar, you know, do some other things like that. So it’s, it’s one of many things probably just like you, you have tools in your toolbox. And maybe you have some different tools or more tools, and it can help people. And so that’s the bottom line. And, you know, the MSM is one of many things that that can be supportive for people. So that’s, that’s how I see it today. And

I love that language you used, how it acts as that sticky paper and it can attract the toxins and flush them out, because that’s sort of the language that I use sometimes around floaters is, you know, what can we do to flush the floaters out? Sure. And, you know, it’s like, if we’re thinking about physically dealing with the floaters or flushing them out, or breaking them up or dissolving them in some way. That’s one side of it. And from the Bates system, I really love getting people swinging along and doing movement practices to really stimulate the lymph system to kind of get that cleanup crew involved and just get the flow of the fluids going. Yeah, and anybody who has floaters knows that when you do swing your head or your body or you move the floaters move as well. So that’s kind of what I did with my floaters. It’s like, if I’m just staring and straining, they’re just like, stagnant and stuck in my eye. But through the swinging and the movement, it’s circulating, and potentially sloshing those fluids around and kind of moving things, shaking it up. Yeah. But I also appreciated how my vision teacher, Jerry and Tabor, whenever I asked about my floaters, she would advise me to keep working on my myopia. Because the more my eyesight cleared up, and I could see better in the distance without my glasses, even if there still were floaters in my eye, I wouldn’t even notice them. You know, the brain has this ability to like, see, or them or to tune them out, in a sense. So I kind of had that twofold approach. It’s like, Yes, I physically want these things out of my eyes. But also, I want to just keep focusing on my goal here of just getting more and more vision improvement.

And I think that’s a great way to go. Because, you know, when your vision improves, like you say, with your myopia, then everything changes. And I would probably say, with a lot of people who’ve had success with floaters, it’s partly due to the fact is, they’re not aware of them anymore. They’re still there. But it’s not bothering them. Right. And, you know, that’s, that’s part of the deal as well. And just the fact that you were able to improve your myopia. Well, you, you now have a belief that when people come to you, you know, it works. And you can, you know, you can kind of help people, just from your energy just like, well, I’ve done it, so you can do it. And, you know, that’s what I’m looking for, with, you know, how I how I help people is to be able to, you know, alright, my walking my talk, am I really, is this really happened or is it something I read the book, you know, and, again, when we read it in the book, it’s an idea that’s out there, but we’re not really embodying it. And what you say about the lymphatic health is so true, because for most people, their lymph system is pretty stagnating. I mean, jump on a rebounder a few minutes a day. What does it do to your eye pressure? What might bring it down? It might reduce your floaters, long swings, which is one of the exercises is on my I clarity exercise program. I love long swings. It’s so great. So movement that really helps stimulate our, our health, and we’re sitting too much, you know, that’s kind of part of the issue, right? So yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And it’s been getting more publicity lately. The other thing I’ve been experimenting with is supplementing with bromelain, the digestive enzyme found in pineapples. And yet there’s been some studies suggesting that that can potentially help decrease floaters. So I just got a bottle and I’m starting to try it myself. Because based on what he just said, I don’t like to just read about it. I like to have a personal experience and try it out myself. So

yeah, yeah, Bramall Lane is really, I think it works. Well, I’ve used it in a number of patients. And so that’s, that’s something new that’s come on the radar, which I think is great. So, you know, we’re always looking for those new things that might might help. You know, I get a lot of questions about scar tissue in the eyes. And I experimented with natto kinase and serrapeptase. And in some people, they actually work when they supplement with those. There, I I, scar tissue does reduce and so people with retinal detachment or iridectomy ease and you know, all these surgeries where you’re going to get scar tissue, this may be a way to, to help people be able to see things more clearly. So it’s very exciting. What’s what’s going on? Sure. So natto, natto, kinase, and serrapeptase. Those are two supplements with serrapeptase is a digestive enzyme that can actually help remove some scarring. And I scarring. There’s been some studies, small studies on that. And some people are a little sensitive to that digestive enzyme. So then you could use natto kinase instead, which is more of a supplement. And so we’ve been using those for for the scar tissue that sometimes occurs after an eye procedure.

Sure, yeah. Cool. And you did just also bring up cataracts not too long ago as kind of a common issue that people run into. And you also mentioned how the cataract surgery is also an option. But yeah, are there particular things that you have people kind of try out before going down the surgery route?

Well, if it’s an early stage cataract, we try to determine where the cataract is in the lens because based on where the cataract is in the lens, we might use a different treatment. So for example, if somebody has a cataract that’s around the edges, that’s called a cortical cataract, it looks like spokes, that is related more to a glycation issue where the glycogen the glucose molecule has bonded with the protein molecule in the lens. So creates a cataract that’s more based on glucose problems, whether it’s diabetes or prediabetes or whatever. So we might use something like carnosine or an acetylcysteine. Or we might use the cansee eyedrops those would be some some things to start with. Now for cataract is more in the center is it in more in the front than nuclear cataract which is more of an aging cataract or the posterior subcapsular cataract? In those cases what I have seen that works again early stages is using the ocular med. eyedrops, which has glutathione and vitamin C in it. So glutathione is a big player with lens health for me, and I will have people supplement with a sublingual liposomal glutathione booster vitamin C get a buffered one to 2000 milligrams of vitamin C a day. Those those are you know no brainers and then if you want to use the topical eyedrops can’t see or ocular med or the homeopathic cineraria certainly you could do those and you’ll know within a month or three month whether things are getting worse. And you know I did a podcast recently on the question I get about cataracts is you know, 95% of my patients get better with cataracts. What is that 5% They start doing these things and their cataracts get worse. And so that was the question that was the podcast. And this the cliffnotes of that. Maybe the healing is for you to just get the cataract surgery. And, you know, there’s some parameters you want to go for try to correct both eyes for distance. If you’re near sighted, try not to become farsighted. If you can talk to your doctor about staying in that, you know, because nearsighted and farsighted people think differently, they process differently. Yes, right. And then, you know, do you want to get the multifocal lens? Do you want to get the astigmatism lenses depends on your lifestyle. And, you know, how much do you have and you know, there, there are factors involved that I actually walk people to the cataract surgery, and inform them, some of the intraocular lenses don’t have blue light in them. So you want to make sure if you get the interocular lenses that you’re now protecting yourself with blue light either through, you know, doing some lutein, zeaxanthin and ask the Xanthan or blue blockers or a screen, you know, just being aware of blue light a little more, if you’ve had cataract surgery. So there are things that you can do. But you know, I remember my dad, my dad did my, my program for like 10 years. And then he was in his 80s. And he was having difficulty driving at night. And so we hooked him up with a surgeon, he got cataract surgery in you know, for the last six years of his life, he died at 89 he was driving at night, he was happy he was you know, so I recommend cataract surgery, there are times that I think, you know, it works better. If you have a mature cataract and these these things aren’t working for you don’t struggle with it, just go get the surgery. And there’s some things you can do. Preparing before and after. But it’s they’ve done so many of them that, you know, chances are you’re gonna have a really great outcome and move on. That’s the healing, get the surgery move on.

Yeah, that’s really important. Because, you know, we don’t want to get too stuck in just one one way of thinking or one approach. And sometimes I like to remind people, that allopathic is contained within holistic, you know, holistic isn’t just ignoring one part. It’s it’s taking it all into account. So yeah, yeah, I think it’s good to be realistic and and know when it’s time to incorporate some type of surgery like that into the natural healing process as well.

I mean, I think what’s really great about the Bates work is that, you know, somebody goes for cataract surgery, and then you can give them a prescription of palming or sunning or long swings or whatever is in your, you know, in your repertoire is going to totally help their healing, you know, they’re going to, they’re going to get their eyesight back in even a better way, by doing your exercises, you know, so what a great thing as a physical therapy after the surgery that you can be there for them. And that’s what I because it’s so simple. Oh, palming. Okay, that’s pretty easy. I can do that. I don’t need some piece of equipment, the equipment. So you know, I’ve watched some of your videos and appreciate the simplicity of what you’re teaching, but also, it’s profound. If people actually do the work, they’re going to heal faster. And, you know, with surgery, what a great gift to offer people because they’ve got anesthesia, they’ve got antibiotics, they got steroids, and they’ve got all these things they gotta be taking. So here, you’re helping them through circulation, oxygenation, relaxation, you know, more self awareness. It’s a great, it’s a great complement. And that’s exactly what you’re saying that holistic lives in allopathic and allopathic lives in holistic and there. They need to be, you know, together. It isn’t just, we’re we got this polarity and this polarity. That doesn’t work. Yeah, right. So right, right.

So I love that, you know, Dr. Bates himself was an eye surgeon.

You right formed? Yes,

I started without that. And so, you know, that was like a one stop shop. Right, you could get your surgery and get your Bates practices from the same guy.

Yeah, it was pretty, it’s pretty broad, broad band, you know, in the early 1900s, to have a doctor that visionary to be able to be that broad. I mean, I kind of wished today, some of the surgeons offered that kind of perspective, instead of this more narrow. So that was one of the things I loved about Dr. Bates was that, that broadness that he had? He didn’t at all? Yeah, I’m a very strong supporter of people getting prescriptions that improve their vision. And this is where I sometimes get a little frustrated with the eye care field, because they’re not willing to help people reduce their prescription. Now, there’s these online places you can go and the ways you can get around it. But when they’d be much easier if, you know, Jane says, Look, Doctor, can I get a prescription that corrects me to 2040? Or can I get, you know, a single vision lens instead of this bifocal, and just the resistance that, you know, this 2020 that we need to have it otherwise? You know, it’s irresponsible to be seeing through something less than that you and I know the value of a reduced lens and how it impacts people. So I definitely advocate that, you know, it’s why I keep my licenses current. And believe me, I have to take hours and hours of courses and pharmaceutical drugs and surgery, just to keep my license current, but it’s so important to have that voice out there. So that I can do that for people. Because I think it’s an important component. You know, think about your own case and your own myopia how you were able to step it down. And now you’re 2020. And you’re you’re doing great. And, you know, that’s, that’s what’s needed in the process. So right on, celebrate all of us,

it’s so it’s almost so common sense, because like, just quick story, I was on a phone call last week with, there’s the group here called the Vermont Small Business Development Center, kind of helping out entrepreneurs and small businesses to grow. And it was just my first chat with this volunteer who works there and just trying to get a sense of of my business and my practice. And I love talking to people who have no idea about Natural Vision improvement or how this world works. So his first question was, are you an optometrist? Yeah. And I said, No, I’m not an optometrist. And then I explained how, what the bait system does can sometimes even help you reduce your prescription over time and get some improvements. And so his question was, oh, is this something that, you know, your eye doctor would be able to recommend for you like, Oh, hey, you know, you’ve got this option, you can get these glasses, or there’s this set of vision therapy practices, you can try out and we can see how that works. And unfortunately, I had to be like, Well, no, that’s not really the way it is. Right now. You probably won’t learn about these types of things from your eye doctor. But the fact that just him coming up with that idea, and the fact that it was just such a like, oh, yeah, shouldn’t it be this way? Like, just to a layperson, just really reiterated how the world just needs more and more of this and how onboard so many people would be, if they just learned that, oh, there’s a simple set of things I can do that will make it tangible difference here. So, yeah, more power to your voice getting out there, as you know, an optometrist who supports this, this work and really continuing to put out, you know, proof that this can make a big difference.

Yeah, I haven’t been able to penetrate the eye care community yet certainly penetrated the consumer, but not the professional and the other professionals are all in on it, whether they’re naturopaths, or functional medicine doctors, or acupuncturist or massage therapists, or whatever. But the penetration into the eye care field with that concept is, you know, I’m working on it, but I haven’t, I haven’t done it yet. And I think social media might be a way to create enough of a need for it or demand that maybe then, you know, there’ll be some change. Sometimes that’s how you have to do it through the grassroots. But anyway, so

I was just gonna say that, yeah, feels like a grassroots movement, where it’s a process of individual people learning about it, talking about it, and essentially demanding it from their doctors.

You know, you know, is there really funny. When I first opened in Santa Fe, and I was reducing all these prescriptions that was before I was filling the prescriptions, they were going to LensCrafters. And LensCrafters actually instituted a policy that you could change your lenses, I think within 60 days, if you wanted to if your eyes improved, like because they saw all these people who are their prescriptions would reduce. And I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not. But it was a, it was kind of mind blowing to me that they actually would do something like that. But that was that was the only place and that was the only time and you know, it’s exactly the grassroots is where it’s gonna have to change.

That’s an inspiring story. That will be because it’s like, yeah, you can you can influence that, you know, even if it’s just one franchise and a larger chain, but still, it’s like, you know, the results are speaking for themselves. Yeah,

yeah, they are for sure.

But that, I did also want to just reiterate what you said how it’s important for people to find a prescription that supports them and actually leads to improvements. And that’s just one thing that sometimes if we’re only we’re over focused on some of Bates’s approaches and writings, I’m sure you have encountered I’ve encountered as well, people who just don’t wear their glasses at all, and take that more cold turkey approach. And I definitely experimented with that myself, where I would really test the limits and roll long periods of time without my glasses. But I would still put them on when needed. And I would still give my brain that clarity in certain moments and times. So I just wanted to reiterate what you said and just anybody listening who might feel resistance to putting glasses on, it may actually help you progress to the next level, especially if you have the right strength and probably like a reduced strength, like you’re talking about Sam. So

yeah, that’s really true. When I’m counseling people, whether they’re farsighted nearsightedness, astigmatism doesn’t matter, it’s great to have the step down in between. Because you’re now interacting with more than just total blur. There’s some, there’s some detail and there’s some peripheral, and it’s important for your brain to relearn. That’s that next step of reduction, and for you to feel that gradient, Oh, this feels more relaxing, and also to be artful about when is the circumstance I wear those, so I’m not going to wear the reduced prescription. If I’m driving at night, and we’re in a rainstorm. I’m gonna wear that say if I’m hiking in the daytime or I’m, you know, playing with my kids or I’m gardening. And then the other the other side of that, of course, is I have people where the opposite prescription now that’s done in a therapeutic setting. So nearsighted people were farsighted prescription farsighted people were a near sighted prescription. And in a therapeutic setting where there’s no visual demand, to invite people to start to be aware of mentally what are they thinking, when they immediate Lee are confronted with that level of blur gives them a sense of the programming that they’re actually doing to their own eyes, but it’s just kind of under the radar. And so, you know, when you wear a plus lens, as a nearsighted person, and I’m talking like plus three plus four, for a short period of time, and then you take the lenses off, you’re gonna start to get more naked visual acuity and same for farsightedness. So I think you can use these lenses very creatively, therapeutically, and to have somebody like you or me counsel them to say, Okay, let’s do this, the small step down, and then you these other times, you need to go without them. Or you can wear the opposite lens prescription. You know, so people start to hook into their awareness about what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling, how they’re moving, how they’re reacting with these different lens prescriptions, and that turns their eyes on, they get more conscious in inside their eyes. And that ultimately, will stay with them forever Once they make that crossover. And that’s why that’s why it works. So, you know, I think we’re in agreement there with that and it’s such an important part of reducing refractive error. You know, you have to be able to come down a little bit at a time I mean, again, the word I use is patience. You know, for most people, they’ve had these visual conditions. I say to them, how long have you had them, oh, 10 years, and you’re expecting to change it in, you know, two weeks, come on, you know, I mean, change a little bit, but give yourself a break, you know, and that will happen. But you need to set the stage so that you’re preparing yourself for that opening, and you need to be, the more patient you are, the better it’s gonna go for you. So that’s the, that’s the wisdom around it.

And it may or may also be the challenge for some people, because the the activities themselves, you know, the different practices, and these are not difficult in and of themselves, but having the patience to stick with it and really follow through. That’s a different story. So but I think yeah, the more you understand how the process works, and and have a couple ideas of where you’re headed, it can really help you stick with it and follow through. With some help.

Yeah, that’s it. We’re here as stewards and guiding, you know, we’re kind of, you know, we’re, we’re taking people on a trip, and it’s away from the dependency of their, their glasses or contacts or improving their eye health. And, you know, I remember when I went through my own vision therapy process, I was pretty nearsighted as well. And my doctor said to me, I’m giving you one practice, and I want you to do it for three months. I was like, What? No, I can’t. And basically said, I want you to use the practice as a mirror to learn about your habits, your belief systems, your conditioning. And that was the that was the key that unlocked my resistance around, you know, being able to let go of my nearsightedness at the time, I didn’t know it. And I went through a lot of resistance around it, but it’s less about the exercise and more about what we bring to it. I mean, certainly the exercise is important. But you know, it’s bringing that insight that that really is going to create the change. It’s not a mechanical thing.

No, no. Yeah. And, and interestingly, I feel like a lot of people probably, at some point, come to a similar conclusion of like, wow, I’m actually, even though I want to improve my vision, I’m resisting it, I’m, there’s some fear of letting go of the myopia, or the strain or the tension for some reason. And it’s seems very counterintuitive, because it’s like, Well, wait, that’s why I’m here doing this, I’m trying to let go of the nearsightedness but then there’s some deeper things still holding on. So I think for for people to dig deep, and really find out what those those resistances truly are. If we can kind of let those soften up and loosen up and relax, then the vision can change quite dynamically.

Well, maybe that’s why these retreats and longer workshops, allow people to really embrace those deeper things and feel safe enough to do that. Whereas a you know, an hour session does something but when they’re on your retreat for several days, wow, now they’re getting this see those habits, and they’re doing it in a field with others common. So that’s helpful community, and then the amplification of the community and then feeling safe enough to go okay, I can feel my vulnerability around what this really means. And that’s why those those longer retreats are valuable. And being able to create the momentum to make the change that you’re, you’re speaking about.

Exactly. Faculty, yeah. And kind of goes back to before we started recording, we were talking about, you know, wanting to start get back into that kind of thing and doing more actual, like, live in person retreats and overnight stays places. And because yeah, it’s like before the pandemic I was, that was a part of my practice that I was really starting to ramp up. And I was doing more like weekend retreats and week long kind of events. And so yeah, it just doesn’t really translate with with the virtual version, to be able to just spend a full day and night you know, full weekend and just be so immersed in it. Yeah, exactly. So keep setting those intentions to get some more of those things on the calendar.

Really, people are hungry for him. And especially because we’ve been in such isolation. When when it’s okay for us to, you know, the congregate again, Whoa, watch out. I mean, the level of depth we’re going to be in is really powerful. So it’s coming. You know, it’s definitely moving back into that slowly. So yeah, it’s we’re, we’re through, we’re through the worst part of it. Yeah.

Yeah, well, once again, I really am not only looking greatly forward to reading your full book. But you also mentioned that you’re creating an audio book so that people are going to be able to listen to it as well. Is that right?

That’s right. Yeah. So we’re, I’m in the process of reading it right now and getting the, the audio levels and all that. So we’ll, we’ll release that through audible. So are you because I do get a lot of people that say, you know, I’m partially sighted and you know, got a cataract or this or that? Can I Can I listen to the book? And, you know, audio is definitely a podcast what we’re doing now, you know, people want audios? And how can we? How can we reduce the resistance so that people can engage with us, some people like video, some people like written, some people like audio. So give it to them in as many different ways as you can. And then people can choose how they want to do it. It’s funny, you know, I write a written blog, and people love that, you know, and then there are other people that go, I love the video, you know, and then other people go, Well, I’m jogging, or I’m walking my dog, and I get to listen to a podcast. So it’s, it’s, again, what the internet has done for us to be able to reach more people in a variety of ways. So yeah. So that’s, that’s the audio part. Everybody’s

different. Yeah. And requires their own learning style for sure. So yeah, especially, you know, just specifically how ironic it is, in order to learn about making your eyes healthier and better requires you’re using your eyes to read a book. So to be able to just listen to that have your eyes closed or palm Your eyes are going that walk and enjoy is a really nice gift. So and for it to be in your voice to that’s yes as well.

Yeah, well, that’s the only way I would do it, you know? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to express how I really liked the title because that, that word vitality, is a really good descriptor of when it makes me think of Margaret Corbett, who studied under Dr. Bates and contributed a lot to the Natural Vision world, how she would talk about when we have this eyestrain or mental strain, it just zaps the eyes of their vitality. And so it just drains them of their energy and their functionality. And so when we can learn ways to let go of the stress and the strain, and start to feel more relaxation coming in there, not only does that feel relaxing, but it actually gets us back in touch with this vital energy that we can now use and utilize. And like you said earlier, when your vision improves, everything changes, everything improves. So I think it’s not only a perfect word, but you know, since the title of my book, give up your glasses for good. Honestly, I like alliteration. Yes. Yeah. The bear with the alliteration too.

Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. Yeah, it’s important, you know, the rhythm, the language of it really plays into it. And when we were my team, and I were, you know, throwing together different ideas, and we had so many different ideas. And then there’s Vivi vital vision. And it just, it just kind of worked and yeah, vitality, right, you know, we look at somebody and we can tell their health based on the light that’s coming out of their eyes, you know, they’re bright, they’re engaged, you look at a baby, you know, or a puppy, you know, they’re so, yeah, so I’m really excited about putting it out there and seeing where it goes and what it does. And, you know, you know, thanks for having me on and, you know, sharing sharing with your community and, you know, to be continued in our collaboration,

absolutely. Yeah. And, and where, where will people be able to find the book when it is released?

Well, we’re still trying to figure that out. Um, you know, obviously, it’ll be on my website, Dr. Sam byrne.com, we’re probably going to do a pre sale campaign through our social media platforms. And, you know, we’ll make it available. And I’ve got a couple of bookstores that I really like. And you know, we’ll just see I’ve got some good distribution channels. So, you know, hopefully, you’ll be able to get it. A lot of places, but, you know, just stay in touch with with us, and we’ll let you know when we’re releasing it.

Yeah, and you’ve got plenty of things to keep people busy. In the meantime, would you say that would be the main place you would send people as your main website? And then maybe, you know, like, some social media places as well.

Yeah. So Dr. Sam burn.com is a way you can you can always get me Hello, Dr. Sam burn.com is a great email. So I will definitely get if you have any questions, and yeah, Facebook, Dr. Sam burn, or Instagram, or I’m on all of them, tick tock, YouTube, LinkedIn, and my podcast, the i clarity podcast, which is on Apple, and Spotify, and all of that. So a lot of places you can find me and happy to help. So I answer questions for free and all my content is free. So you know, I don’t charge anything, just type in what you want to learn and my name and something will come up for you that I know will help. So that’s, that’s kind it’s pretty easy for people.

Yeah, that’s awesome. And something that I relate to as well. Just love educating people and putting putting resources out there for free for people, because it’s just a matter of people realizing that this exists, and then you know, choosing what to do with it from there. So yeah, thank you so much for all the amazing knowledge you put out and education you share with people right on and, and yeah, this has been awesome to to chat with you today and go through some pretty, pretty powerful subjects and topics. And want to thank the listeners once again, for tuning in. And definitely go check out all the things that Dr. Sam has got going on. So thanks again, Sam, for being here.

Okay. You’re welcome. Bye, bye. Yeah, I’m a very strong supporter of people getting prescriptions that improve their vision. And this is where I sometimes get a little frustrated with the eye care field, because they’re not willing to help people reduce their prescription. Now there’s these online places you can go and there ways you can get around it. But when it’d be much easier if, you know, Jane says, Look, Doctor, can I get a prescription that corrects me to 2040? Or can I get, you know, a single vision lens instead of this bifocal, and just the resistance that, you know, this 2020 that we need to have it otherwise, you know, it’s irresponsible to be seeing through something less than that you and I know the value of a reduced lens and how it impacts people. So I definitely advocate that, you know, it’s why I keep my licenses current. And believe me, I have to take hours and hours of courses and pharmaceutical drugs and surgery just to keep my license current. But it’s so important to have that voice out there. So that I can do that for people. Because I think it’s an important component. You know, think about your own case and your own myopia how you were able to step it down. And now you’re 2020 and you’re doing great. And, you know, that’s, that’s what’s needed in the process. So right on celebrate,

it’s so it’s almost so common sense because like just quick story I was on a phone call last week with. There’s the group here called the Vermont Small Business Development Center, kind of helping out entrepreneurs and small businesses to grow. And it was just my first chat with this volunteer who works there and just trying to get a sense of my business and my practice. And I love talking to people who have no idea about Natural Vision improvement or how this world works. So his first question was, are you an optometrist? And I said, No, I’m not an optometrist. And then I explained how, what the bait system does can sometimes even help you reduce your prescription over time and get some improvements. And so his question was, oh, is this something that, you know, your eye doctor would be able to recommend for you like, Oh, hey, you know, you’ve got this option, you can get these glasses, or there’s this set of vision therapy practices, you can try out and we can see how that works. And unfortunately, I had to be like, Well, no, that’s not really the way it is. Right now, you probably won’t learn about these types of things from your eye doctor. But the fact that just him coming up with that idea, and the fact that it was just such a like, oh, yeah, shouldn’t it be this way? Like, just to a layperson, just really reiterated how the world just needs more and more of this, and how onboard so many people would be, if they just learned that, oh, there’s a simple set of things I can do that will make it tangible difference here. So, yeah, more power to your voice getting out there, as you know, an optometrist who supports this, this work and really continuing to put out, you know, proof that this can make a big difference.

Yeah, I haven’t been able to penetrate the eye care community yet certainly penetrated the the consumer, but not the professional and the other professionals are all in on it, whether they’re naturopaths, or functional medicine doctors, or acupuncturist, or massage therapists, or whatever. But the penetration into the eye care field with that concept is, you know, I’m working on it, but I haven’t, I haven’t done it yet. And I think social media might be a way to create enough of a need for it or demand that maybe then, you know, there’ll be some change, sometimes that’s how you have to do it through the grassroots. But anyway, so I was just gonna

say that, yeah, feels like a grassroots movement, where it’s a process of individual people learning about it, talking about it, and essentially, demanding it from their doctors.

You know, it was really funny. When I first opened in Santa Fe, and I was reducing all these prescriptions, as it was, before I was filling the prescriptions, they were going to LensCrafters. And LensCrafters actually instituted a policy that you could change your lenses, I think, within 60 days, if you wanted to if your eyes improved, like because they saw all these people, where their prescriptions would reduce, and I don’t know whether they’re still doing it or not. But it was a, it was kind of mind blowing to me that they actually would do something like that. But that was that was the only place and that was the only time and you know, it’s exactly the grassroots is where it’s gonna have to change.

That’s an inspiring story, though. Because it’s like, yeah, you can you can influence that, you know, even if it’s just one franchise of a larger chain, but still, it’s like, you know, the results are speaking for themselves. Yeah.

Yeah, they are for sure.

But that, I did also want to just reiterate what you said how it’s important for people to find a prescription that supports them and actually leads to improvements. And that’s just one thing that sometimes if we’re only we’re over focused on some of Bates’s approaches and writings, I’m sure you have encountered I’ve encountered as well, people who just don’t wear their glasses at all, and take that more cold turkey approach. And I definitely experimented with that myself, where I would really test the limits and roll long periods of time without my glasses. But I would still put them on when needed. And I would still give my brain that clarity in certain moments and times. So I just wanted to reiterate what you said and just anybody listening who might feel resistance to putting glasses on, it may actually help you progress to the next level, especially if you have the right strength and probably like a reduced strength, like you’re talking about Sam So

yeah, that’s really true. When I’m counseling people, whether they’re farsighted, nearsighted, astigmatism doesn’t matter. It’s great to have the step down in between. Because you’re now interacting with more than just total blur. There’s some, there’s some detail and there’s some peripheral. And it’s important for your brain to relearn. That’s that next step of reduction. And for you to feel that gradient, Oh, this feels more relaxing. And also to be artful about when is the circumstance I wear those. So I’m not going to wear the reduced prescription. If I’m driving at night and we’re in a rainstorm. I’m going to wear that say if I’m hiking in the daytime or I’m, you know, playing with my kids or I’m gardening. And then the other the other side of that, of course, is I have people where the opposite prescription now that’s done in a therapeutic setting. So nearsighted people were farsighted prescription farsighted people wear a nearsighted prescription. And in a therapeutic setting where there’s no visual demand, to invite people to start to be aware of mentally, what are they thinking, when they immediate ly are confronted with that level of blur, gives them a sense of the programming that they’re actually doing to their own eyes. But it’s just kind of under the radar. And so, you know, when you wear a plus lens, as a nearsighted person, and I’m talking like plus three plus four, for a short period of time, and then you take the lenses off, you’re gonna start to get more naked visual acuity and same for farsightedness. So I think you can use these lenses very creatively, therapeutically, and to have somebody like you or me, counsel them to say, Okay, let’s do this, the small step down, and then you these other times, you need to go without them. Or you can wear the opposite lens prescription. You know, so people start to hook into their awareness about what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling, how they’re moving, how they’re reacting, with these different lens prescriptions, and that turns their eyes on, they get more conscious in inside their eyes. And that ultimately, will stay with them forever, once they make that crossover. And that’s why that’s why it works. So, you know, I think we’re in agreement there with that, and it’s such an important part of reducing refractive error, you know, you have to be able to come down a little bit at a time. And again, the word I use is patience. You know, for most people, they’ve had these visual conditions, I say to them, how long have you had them over 10 years, and you’re expecting to change it in, you know, two weeks, come on, you know, I mean, you can change a little bit, but give yourself a break, you know, and that will happen. But you need to set the stage so that you’re preparing yourself for that opening, and you need to be, the more patient you are, the better it’s gonna go for you. So that’s the, that’s the wisdom around it.

And it may or may also be the challenge for some people because the the activities themselves, you know, the different practices and therapies are not difficult in and of themselves, but having the patience to stick with it and really follow through. That’s a different story. So but I think yeah, the more you understand how the process works, and have a couple ideas of where you’re headed, it can really help you stick with it and follow through. Especially with some help.

Yeah, that’s it. We’re here as stewards and guiding, you know, we’re kind of, you know, we’re, we’re taking people on a trip, and it’s away from the dependency of their, their glasses or contacts or improving their eye health. And, you know, I remember when I went through my own vision therapy process, I was pretty nearsighted as well. And my doctor said to me, I’m giving you one practice, and I want you to do it for three months. I was like, what, and I can’t, and basically said, I want you to use the practice as a mirror to learn about your habits, your belief systems, your conditioning. And that was the that was the key that unlo