#273: BNI – Part 2 – Continuing The Growth

Dr. Misner learned that the law of reciprocity is the strongest form of connection and now “Givers Gain” is the philosophy that all the members of BNI live by.

Dave Young:

Welcome to the Empire Builders Podcast, teaching business owners the not so secret techniques that took famous businesses from mom and pop to major brands. Stephen Semple is a marketing consultant, story collector and storyteller. I’m Stephen’s sidekick and business partner, Dave Young. Before we get into today’s episode, word from our sponsor, which is, well, it’s us, but we’re highlighting ads we’ve written and produced for our clients. So here’s one of those.

[Wagmore Garage Doors Ad]

Gary:

Told you, Brian.

Brian:

Told me what?

Gary:

This is part two of last week’s episode.

Brian:

Oh, yeah. And it was getting good.

Gary:

If you missed it, go back and listen to part one first. Take it away, fellas.

Stephen Semple:

Was there a big moment? Was there a big challenge? Was there a setback? So what are some of the things that you face that you had to deal with in this journey?

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Feature Creep is ongoing. I didn’t quite set up BNI to be as smooth a business as it could have been. Franchising in the early days was complex to figure out, but that’s not the single biggest thing. The thing that almost bankrupted me was what’s called BNI Connect. And I don’t know, Stephen, if you were part of BNI when we introduced BNI Connect.

Stephen Semple:

I think it was-

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Our online platform-

Stephen Semple:

I think it was just around the time.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. Imagine LinkedIn for BNI. It’s a walled garden. You can’t really use any of the services on BNI Connect unless you’re a member. Yeah, that was horrible. And I actually wrote a book about this. It’s called The 3rd Paradigm, and the first paradigm being competition, the second paradigm in business, second paradigm being cooperation, and the third paradigm is co-creation. And we talk about how we solved this problem with BNI Connect through co-creation. And if somebody really wants to read the story of how I dealt with my most serious problem, pick up a copy of The 3rd Paradigm, and here’s a secret. We surveyed 2000 people, so there’s survey data. We talk about what are the top seven characteristics of co-creation, what are the seven problems with co-creation? And then interwoven in every chapter is a story about this platform and a guy named Richard. And we say it’s a true story, but we don’t say the platform is BNI Connect and Richard’s my middle name.

So it was me. I tell the story about all the really, really stupid things I did and how I eventually resolved them through co-creation, through getting people to work with me. And one of the most important statements that I continually said was hold the vision, not the obstacles. There’s lots of obstacles. What we have to do as a group is hold the vision. Just keep holding that vision. We’ll work around the obstacles. We’ll work under the obstacles. We’ll go over the obstacles. We’ll knock the dang things down. Hold the vision, not the obstacles. And there was a very seminal moment, and I talk about it in the book where I felt I was ready. They were ready to take me out and draw and quarter me in the courtyard. They were so mad at me. And I talked about how we, through co-creation, did something amazing. I couldn’t give you that 27 billion number, 27.1 billion number if we didn’t have BNI Connect.

Stephen Semple:

So BNI Connect was a massive undertaking-

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah, it almost bankrupted me.

Stephen Semple:

Almost bankrupted you, but you saw the vision and you just stuck with it.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah.

Stephen Semple:

Now talk to me a little bit more about how this co-creation helped with making that happen.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, the first thing that I had to do was to acknowledge that what I had done wasn’t working. And so I took responsibility for… It was with a small group of people, we call them the founder’s circle. It’s about 35 people, top directors in BNI. And so you just throw yourself on the sword. And generally, if you throw yourself in the sword right from the outset, it’s hard for other people to hack away at you because you’ve already done it to yourself. And so I apologized and I said, “Look, this is my fault that it’s come to this, but I think we as a group can come up with a solution. So tell me everything you hate about the platform, everything.” I went, “We have three hours. We’re only going to do one topic. It’s going to be this, and I want you to tell me every single thing you hate. I’m going to write it on a flip chart and I’m going to just take the flip chart as I fill them up and I’ll tape them around the room.” My strategy was listen till they drop.

Stephen Semple:

Wow.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

That was literally my managerial strategy that I came up with. Listen till they drop. Listen and let them vent so much for so long, it tires them out. And Stephen, for two and a half hours, they beat the living daylights out of me, verbally. It was just one thing after all. And I really trained myself to say, “Thank you. What else?” Now, sometimes they would say something, I’m like… Internal dialogue, right? “That’s the dumbest thing I have heard in a month. Are you kidding me?” But what I said was, “Thank you. What else?” So you just take it all.

Stephen Semple:

Thank you, what else? Take it all.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

So I wrote it down. We had 600 items. I wallpapered the entire room. Oh, and I told them, “We’re not taking any breaks. If you need to use the restroom, go ahead. If you want coffee, go ahead. We’re going straight through.” So nobody wanted to leave, right? And if they left, they left quick and came back because they wanted to see the bloodbath, right?

Stephen Semple:

Yes.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

People were beating me up. And at the end of two and a half hours, I thanked them for being very honest. They were very honest. And I said, “Are you open to an idea?” Now, had I walked in… I had the idea when I came in, I knew generally what I wanted to do, but I needed that feedback before I could proceed. But I had a plan walking into it. And I asked them if they’re open to a suggestion. And at that point they’re like, “Yeah, we beat them up enough. What’s your suggestion?”

Stephen Semple:

Well, and the other thing is I’ve been heard.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. Oh, they were heard.

Stephen Semple:

When somebody feels heard, they’re then open to hearing a solution and a situation.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

100%.

Stephen Semple:

Yeah. Yeah. No, this is huge.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

100%. And so I said, “Look, let’s take this list hundreds of items. I want to create a project board. Those of you in this room that are really active in understanding the challenges, you’ll be on the project board. We’re going to get some tech people that are in the organization on the project board. The project board will make all decisions.” I can veto nothing. I will veto nothing. If I have a project that I want, I’ll put it on the list. If the project board votes for it, great. If they don’t, I veto nothing. The only thing I can do is I have a budget. So we got to stay within this budget, which by the way, I took a $1 million line of credit out to help meet this budget. And so I said, “I won’t veto anything. We’ll have this project board, they’ll triage the list, they’ll take the top 10 and we’ll deal with the top 10, and then they’ll take the next 10 and the next 10 and the next 10 until we get through everything that the project board wants to get through.”

And I think, and I have actually said this, I said, “I think this someday will be a story in a book about how we turn something around,” which ended up being a story in a book. This is the book, The 3rd Paradigm.

Stephen Semple:

Absolutely. I’ve written it down. Once we’re done, I’m ordering.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

If you read nothing else, read the story about Richard that’s intertwined in every chapter.

Stephen Semple:

I absolutely want to read that.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

And then I did this one last thing. I told them we’re going to have a project board. And then I had my staff, we had all these buttons made up hoping. Look, I didn’t know if it would work. They might’ve said, “N o, you’re an idiot. We’re not going to do this more.” I mean, they could have said that. I didn’t know for sure. I was hoping. And they knew me, I knew them, there was a relationship. So I had all these buttons made up.

Stephen Semple:

But you trusted them. Yeah.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I had these buttons made up that said E-G-B-O-K, EGBOK. And I passed out all these buttons. So staff passed out all these buttons and they’re like, “What? EGBOK, what?” I said, “You guys, everything’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay.”

Stephen Semple:

That’s leadership, right?

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I created the problem. We’re going to all solve it together. Everything’s going to be okay. This is going to be a game changer for the organization when we get through it. And I had somebody say, “Can I get some more buttons? I want to take them out. I want to hand them out to people outside.” I’m like, “Yeah, you have as many buttons as you want.”

Stephen Semple:

It’s interesting that leadership piece. I had a client about a year and a half ago, his business was plateaued out and they were struggling a little bit, and he had an interesting aha moment. He ended up saying to me… Because all of a sudden things turned around and he had an interesting aha moment. This guy’s name is Travis. And Travis said to me, he said, “I realized I was coming into work every day down and worried and depressed and worried about the future.” And he said, “The day I changed it in my own mind that I came in and said, yeah, we’ve got challenges, but it’s all going to work out. What do we need to do to work it out was the day things turned.”

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. Hold the vision, not the obstacles.

Stephen Semple:

And we ensure people, be that leader that reinsures people that we are going to take that hill. We’ll figure it out. We’re going to take that hill.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. So I had a consultant. I actually went to a consultant to get advice on what you’re talking about, changing my attitude. And I’ll never forget, he said, “So you’re going to go from this meeting of 35 people. If it goes well, those 35 people are going to go out and say, Hey, it went a lot better than we thought.” And it did because they’re all going to have buttons. And there were people outside going, “Did you tell him how mad we were?” And people were like, “Yeah, EGBOK.” They’re like, “What?” Everything’s going to be okay. So anyway, we went out there and he said, “When that meeting’s over and you’re walking through the room of 500 people,” he said, “Be Gandhi.” I said, “What?” He said, “Just walk through with a smile and nod, nod at everyone, shake hands, be happy, be Gandhi as you walk through. Be peaceful, be centered, and be positive.” And that’s what I did.

Stephen Semple:

Amazing.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

As centered as I could have been after being beaten up for two and a half hours and walked through the room, and that was the beginning of the change.

Stephen Semple:

But I think there’s a couple of things you did that’s really interesting. You actually looked at all the 600 things as a gift and you were calm.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, at least 400 of them. 200 were stupid.

Stephen Semple:

Well, sure, but-

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I’m just kidding. I’m just kidding.

Stephen Semple:

But more the act of people opening up, thank you, gift, we’re going to be calm. We’re going to use this information and it’s all going to work and you are a leader. And here’s the interesting thing is some people could say, “Well, you weren’t a leader because you gave up control. The best leaders give up control.”

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, and that’s what co-creation is about. That what The 3rd Paradigm is. It’s got to be run by leaders who are willing to give up a fair amount of control.

Stephen Semple:

Right. And here’s the weird thing. It’s not consensus building.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

No, that’s the second paradigm, cooperation.

Stephen Semple:

Because the part that you were unwilling to negotiate was the vision. The vision is non-negotiable, right? There is that stake in the ground that’s non-negotiable. That’s really interesting. I’d be remiss if we didn’t do a little bit of a pivot here, just given the world.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Okay. I can do that.

Stephen Semple:

So I do have a question for you. First of all, it’s a question and then a little bit of a pivot. What do you think is the biggest mistake entrepreneurs make when they’re asking for a refill?

Dave Young:

Stay tuned. We’re going to wrap up this story and tell you how to apply this lesson to your business right after this.

[Using Stories To Sell]

Dave Young:

Let’s pick up our story where we left off, and trust me, you haven’t missed a thing.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, I think there’d be two big mistakes. Let’s take the mistake of a mistake that’s made maybe in BNI versus a mistake that’s made outside of BNI. So people, when they’re out networking in general, they tend to use their networking efforts as a face-to-face cold calling opportunity. “Hi Stephen, my name’s Ivan. Let’s do business.” And I call it the networking disconnect. And I do that because I went to an event in London and there were 900 people. It was not a BNI event, it was open to the public, but I was a keynote speaker. I stood up there and I just watched people selling to each other. And I said, “How many of you… Raise your hands?” I’d never done this before. I said, “How many of you are here hoping today to maybe just possibly sell something?” Stephen, 900 people raised their hands.

Great. Second question, “How many of you are here today hoping to maybe just possibly buy something?” No one raised their hands. Not one single person. This is what I call the networking disconnect. People show up at networking events wanting to sell, but nobody’s there to buy. So why do you go? You should go. I’m answering part of the question you didn’t ask, but you should go to work your way through the VCP process. You create visibility with people you’ve never met before. You establish credibility with the people that you have met before and you want to continue to create that credibility and you work on the profitability with the people that you have a reciprocal referral relationship with. So I think that’s the biggest mistake that the average business person makes out networking. In BNI, it’s not being laser specific about what you do because in BNI, you get to go every week and you get, depending on the size of the group, anywhere from 30 seconds to 60 seconds to do your weekly presentation.

And so what people try to do is they’ll try and say everything they do in 60 seconds, and that’s a huge mistake. And instead, if you really want to get referrals, and this is still counterintuitive, you get laser specific so that over the course of a year you’ve given a lot of content and you pierce what is in the brain is called the reticular activating system that screens out stuff that it doesn’t need to know. But if you get really, really specific, the reticular activating system then kicks in and people are like, “Oh, I know somebody that can provide that service,” when something is said. So being laser specific within the context of a group that’s meeting every week is the biggest mistake that people make. They don’t get specific. They’re general. Outside BNI, it’s face-to-face cold calling.

Stephen Semple:

Yeah.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I remember one… And you’ve probably had this, have you ever had somebody give you three or four business cards and say, “Hey, would you mind maybe give two or three to some people you know?”

Stephen Semple:

I’m sure I have and I completely forgot and I threw them out.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. Well, that’s the thing, 100%. So again, internal dialogue, people will hand me three cards and say, “Hey, will you give two people that you know?” And what’s going through my mind is, “Oh, heck no. I don’t even know you. What was your last name again? I don’t know you, and you want me to give your cards to people I know?” No, I’m not going to do that. And you’re right, that’s what I did with the other cards.

Stephen Semple:

So the pivot I wanted to do, and I already feel like I know what the answer is, but I think it’s important to ask. The world from 1985, we already talked about how it’s changed. The internet has happened and smartphones has happened, and today social media is such a big thing, and AI is now stepping into the world in a big way. What do you think these things are going to do in terms of the impact that it’s going to have on a place like BNI and referrals and things along that lines?

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, I think businesses today have to be prepared to pivot today more than ever because the advances in technology are just going to keep coming at us. What I used to get when I first started BNI was, is this networking thing a fad? And then of course when the internet started, then it was like, is the internet going to supersede BNI and BNI is going to close? And of course we didn’t. We actually 10 times larger 10 years after the internet came out because technology can flatten the communication hierarchy, and that’s what I love about the effective use of technology. Look at us. We’re in two different locations. We’re doing this interview. It’s live. I can talk to people all around the world. I can see them face-to-face two dimensionally, face-to-face and have a conversation with them. My members can reach out and put a comment on my podcast, which I read every comment that goes up on my podcast. I can interact with my members on social media. The second-largest line item in my budget in 1986 was the telephone bill.

Stephen Semple:

Right.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

It was. It was the second… I had an 800 number. It was incredibly expensive. It was staff-

Stephen Semple:

[inaudible 00:18:57].

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Long distance.

Stephen Semple:

Phone calls actually cost money.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah, a lot of money. And so now we can have conversations for virtually zero with people all around the world. We’re mostly an in-person network and people think that we haven’t embraced technology, but that’s not true. BNI.com, you cannot have a three-letter domain if you’re not an early adopter to a technology.

Stephen Semple:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

So we were an early adopter to the internet. We are an early adopter to AI. For members now, I think I’m going to get it wrong, but it’s something like Ask the Integrated Virtual Advisor Network. And I’m like, “Why would you guys call it that?” And my team said, “Okay, it’s an acronym. Take the letters.” Oh, Ask IVAN. They’re like, “Yeah, Ask IVAN. Are you okay with that?” And I’m like, “Sure, absolutely. I’m okay with that.” So I think we need to embrace AI. And by the way, I’ve tested it. I’ve asked it questions and it gave great answers.

Why? Because it went to my podcast and it scraped 960 podcasts that I’ve done talking about BNI. It went to my blog, which I have 2000 blogs. It’s taken some of my books and scraped my content so that when somebody asks, “How do you do a good weekly presentation?” You’ll get the laser specific, not general. You get a lot more than just that, but you have to… Look, if you don’t pivot, you’re going to be out of business. There are businesses like Kodak. Kodak invented the digital camera, they had the patent on the digital camera. They licensed it to other companies because they didn’t want to mess with their film processing business. There’s even a memo from a vice president that said, “Besides who’s ever going to look at photographs on a computer.” And of course, what happened to Kodak? Kodak, I would argue Kodak could be Apple.

Stephen Semple:

Well, it’s interesting. I did a whole two podcasts on Kodak, one on the amazing things it invented and one on how incredible it is that it failed. People forget, they invented [inaudible 00:21:08], they invented networking, they invented digital camera. Palo Alto is where Steve Jobs got all of his frigging ideas.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

It is. It is. Look, Apple making phones, that’s a leap, but Kodak making phones with a camera, that’s not as big of a leap.

Stephen Semple:

No, it really isn’t.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

So had Kodak embraced the technology, then Kodak could have theoretically been as big as Apple.

Stephen Semple:

Kodak actually invented a lot of the blockchain technology that protects Kodak.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Oh, I did not.

Stephen Semple:

Yes. Oh, God, when you dig into it, as I said, I did two podcasts on Kodak. We’re going to wrap up here shortly, but I do have one other question for you. Is there a decision that you made through this journey with BNI that looked small at the time, but actually really changed things at BNI?

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yes. A franchising would be one. I mean, I didn’t really know a franchising would work in this business, but I think the biggest one is where we started. It takes us full circle to our conversation here, and that’s implementing Givers Gain and trademarking it, by the way. That was a smart move to trademark Givers Gain. I thought it was a great phrase. I didn’t realize that it would be incorporated into the DNA of the organization.

Stephen Semple:

Interesting. Interesting.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I mean, you can go to any country in the world and go to a BNI chapter and ask, give me two words that’s the core philosophy of this company. And in their language, they will say Givers Gain.

Stephen Semple:

I would actually go even further than the language having been involved with BNI, that it really is a philosophy, an identity, a culture. It is much more than just a phrase. I think one of the reasons why the phrase is powerful, one of the things I talk about with branding is the best brands are not created. What a really powerful brand does is reveal the thing that’s already true about the company.

And so one of the things I think that makes Givers Gain so powerful for BNI is it’s not a saying, it’s a belief system, it’s a culture, it’s everything. So that phrase Givers Gain is really revealing something that’s already true about the organization. Now, which came first, chicken or the egg? Doesn’t matter. We have both a chicken and an egg.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Scientists will tell you the egg came first.

Stephen Semple:

Okay. All right, great. But to me, the whole thing, that’s the reason why Givers Gain is so powerful with BNI. So with that in mind, is there something that the people who hear this podcast and participate it and learn from it, is there something that they can do for you?

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, I always love doing interviews. Before we got started, I told you I do 150 of these a year, and I try as much as possible. And in this interview, you’ve asked me a lot about BNI, so I’ve talked more about BNI than I do in a lot of interviews. I always want to provide value added content, and so a lot of my conversations aren’t just at all about BNI. I mean, for example, one of the things that I would say on many podcasts is that really, if you want to be effective at networking, you have to understand that networking’s more about farming than it is about hunting, that it’s about cultivating relationships with other people. That’s the key. If you cultivate relationships with people, people that you know, like, and trust, people that you are willing to help and they’re willing to help you, there is no better way to get business. It’s just the best way in the world to do business.

Stephen Semple:

It really is. Even though we’ve talked about BNI, and the reason why we’ve done that is I believe there’s lessons to be learned through looking at people’s businesses because often-

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Go visit a BNI chapter, bni.com. Go visit a BNI chapter and go to my blog, Ivanmeisner.com. It’s all free content up there. I’ve been posting almost two posts a week for 19 years.

Stephen Semple:

Wow.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

So there’s a lot of-

Stephen Semple:

There is a lot.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

… content up there. Yeah, but go visit a BNI chapter. That would be great.

Stephen Semple:

Awesome. Well, I’m going to encourage people to do it. As I said, I was involved for a number of years. I found it amazing, and there’s people who I met in it who are people who I consider friends to this day, which is awesome. Any last thoughts you want to leave with people?

Dr. Ivan Misner:

You know the old saying, “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know?”

Stephen Semple:

Yeah.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I don’t think it’s either.

Stephen Semple:

Okay.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I don’t think it’s what you know or who you know. I think it’s how well you know each other.

Stephen Semple:

Oh, that’s interesting. That’s awesome.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

I mean, I have some amazing contacts in my telephone, amazing contacts. But the question is, if I picked up that phone and called one of those people, would they take my call?

Stephen Semple:

There you go.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Would it go to voicemail? And if they took my call and I asked for a favor, would they be willing to do the favor? So it’s not just who you know, it’s how well you know each other that really counts when it comes to networking.

Stephen Semple:

And you may agree with this or disagree with this, but I have this feeling, especially when it comes to trust and connection and things along that lines, we trust, we connect, we know people who we have, or we have shared beliefs, we have shared interests, we have all of these shared things, and you really only get to know those things about the kids and the family and the sports and the interests and all those things by spending quality time.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. Yeah. You bring up such a good point. I agree with that 100%. I had a director in a region and he said to the members of a chapter, he only had a few minutes to talk. He said, “How many would say that you know the majority of the members in this chapter and you know them well?” And almost everybody raised their hands to you. And he said, “Okay, great. Now, do you know their spouse’s name? Do you know how many children they have?”

Stephen Semple:

Right.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

“Have you ever been to their office? Do you know what their goals are for their business? Do you know what their travel goals are? How many of you could answer all those questions?” Nobody raised their hands. And he said, “Look, it’s easy to get to know each other superficially, but if you really, really want to build a relationship, you got to know some of those answers with a lot of people, and then you truly have a relationship.”

Stephen Semple:

Right. Yeah. The word relationship is easy to throw around, but takes time to actually develop.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah. And Facebook changed the term friend.

Stephen Semple:

Yeah, it sure did.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

A whole different thing with Facebook.

Stephen Semple:

It sure did. It sure did. This has been awesome. And I actually think the most interesting part of this interview, and I want to thank you for sharing, is that whole idea of… And you talked about it as being not staying with the game plan and adding complexity, because I really think that is lost a lot when people are growing their businesses. They’re always looking for… And sure, we always want to be improving the business. We want to be improving the customer experience and all those other things.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

But you experiment with that. You don’t just jump in doing like that guy did. I keep this in my desk. People are always looking for bright, shiny objects. They really are. Let’s try this.

Stephen Semple:

Yes.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

But look, there’s nothing wrong with experimenting on a limited basis and then going, “You know what? This is a good idea.” But don’t go all in until you’ve tested it first.

Stephen Semple:

Yes. And in the meantime, if you’re wanting to grow, double down on the things that’ll work.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Yeah, 100%. We’re on the exact same page on that one. 100%.

Stephen Semple:

Yeah, that’s cool. So thank you for sharing that. I’ve really enjoyed this time together, and I mean it. Let’s get together for a drink in Austin. I’m going to be there in a few weeks, and we can either do your wine cellar or we can do some whiskey at the academy.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Well, I hope for the wine cellar, but I’ll go with the flow and I’m happy to come back. My book Garage to Global is going to come out next year. Maybe we can have another conversation then.

Stephen Semple:

Absolutely. I would love to do that. When your book is out, let’s do it.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Let’s consider it a date.

Stephen Semple:

All right.

Dr. Ivan Misner:

Take care, my friend.

Stephen Semple:

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. This has been awesome.

Dave Young:

Thanks for listening to the podcast. Please share us, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and leave us a big fat juicy five star rating and review at Apple Podcasts. And if you’d like to schedule your own 90-minute empire building session, you can do it at empirebuildingprogram.com.